On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

there's a simple solution to anyone who doesn't like the so-called "mandatory voluntary" rating systems.

START YOUR OWN!!

I've mentioned this half in jest before, but why don't all the moralistic fanatics petition their church to come up with filtering software. That way you could be sure what kind of stuff your church were filtering out. In doing so you would be providing a powerful check on the values of your religious institution. Since hard-core profit motives would be eliminated you could check if your church actively filters specific sites. This is something the net-nanny software doesn't allow you to do because their filter lists are proprietary. I know the RC church has plenty of additional clergy to devote to such a noble task ;-) The types of filtered information are up to your church: Anyone care to submit major censoring categories for each church? ;-) Maybe the best way for cypherpunks to attack this is to come up with free generic filtering software that any well recognized group can develop filtering lists for. Wait -- a name is coming to me -- GNUSitter? Please append your filtering categories here: Roman Catholic: Jewish: Lutheran: Pentacostal: Baptist: Southern Baptist: Scientologist: Davidian: Statist: Morman: Subgenius: All hail Eris! jim

Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

there's a simple solution to anyone who doesn't like the so-called "mandatory voluntary" rating systems.

START YOUR OWN!!

BladderMirror is right in suggesting that there is a genuine perceived need/market for censorware, and that those upset with the prospect of having an m-v rating system shoved down their throat could probably pick up some serious cash by writing a technologically beneficial and usable censorware product. Doing so might well delay the steady Forced Electronic March To Battan, by providing proponenets of censorship less ammo for their show-and-tell horror shows to people who already agree with them, but who need to be worked into a proper frenzy in order to feel justified forcing fascist legislation on their friends and neighbors. The danger, of course, in descending into the Belly of the Beast in order to grab a few of the gold coins from the government and corporate feeding troughs, is that there always seems to increasing numbers of coins just a little further down the decreasingly lighted passageway. As well, one finds oneself being accompanied by more and more fellow travellers who are trying to convince themself that there is both physical and moral safety in numbers, until they end up freefalling in the bottomless pit, convinced that they have the Great Beast on the run.

anyone is free to create software that filters whatever sites they deem appropriate, to use whatever algorithms they think are legitimate.

I heard two shots I'm So Vlad, but only one seems to have hit the target. Is the other bullet in your foot? Anyone pointing out our 'freedom' to "use" whatever we "deem appropriate" for our purpose should probably avoid using the word "algorithms" in the same sentence, lest they encounter return fire aimed toward the EAR.

there is a legitimate market for filtering software, and it is growing. who is to say what software can be run on someone else's computer? who is to tell parents they shouldn't use a filtering package for their own children?

filtering software can be as simple or complex as we wish. ultimately end users are voting with their money.

I'm Vlad I'm Vlad I'm Vlad may well be the World's Most Dangerous CypherPunk. The question is, "A danger to who?" There is a legitimate market for "Hit Man" instruction manuals, and it is growing. Who is to say what words can be printed on someone else's paper? Who is to tell people they shouldn't use a 'filtering package' on their enemies? The sticky point is that the majority of 'freedom advocates' are only advocating a 'one-way' freedom--Freedom To Believe As I Do! End users are only allowed to use their money to vote for available and/or approved products, and their 'vote' is often no more meaningful than those of the people in South America who elected a 'foot powder' to office because of a political-spoof billboard advertising campaign for the product.

the froth over the rating systems seems to me mostly overblown. I do agree however that they should not be made mandatory based on the law.

the free market is solving the problem. we have ratings agencies and people (such as GLAAD) who rate the rating agencies. I don't see anything worth hyperventilating about.

Vladder You Than Me is invariably right in most of what he has to say. The problem is that those taking a polar-opposite view are also usually right about what _they_ say. The Lake of Life is indeed turning over at a faster and faster rate, and the lines between 'random acts of violence' and 'random acts of kindness' are becoming increasingly blurred. The same seems to be increasingly true for 'random acts of logic' and 'random acts of lunacy.' After spending several seconds engaged in deep thought about the fact that 'It's All Done With Mirrors' and 'Everything You Know Is Wrong', I have reached the conclusion that 'It Is What It Is' and that, regardless of what role we have taken upon ourselves to play upon this mortal plane, 'It's The Only Dance There Is.' (Hey! Maybe _I'm_ John Young!) I woke up this morning contemplating whether or not it is now true that Phil Zimmermann is the Enemy (TM) and Bad BillyG is now my Best Friend In The Whole World (TM). The bottom line, as far as I am concerned (although I have a deep- rooted fear of sounding like our recent "Why can't we just all get along?" Anonymous Goody-Two-Shoes), is that I hope that both Billy and Philly remember that "We're here for a good time, not a long time. So have a good time...the sun doesn't shine every day." I carry on my person, at all times, a list of whom I think the world would be better off without, in case I happen to get a chance to put a bullet between their eyes, or slowly strangle them to death until the life force has been drained from their sorry carcass and they are now in the proper mood for sex. I do, however, try to keep in mind that whatever the Psychic Mind Controllers tell us is good to eat will eventually be relabelled as poisonous, and vice versa. Thus I prefer not to carry heavy artillery with me at all times, knowing that the more lengthy process of strangulation will give me time to sift through my mind to separate dreams from reality, giving me a chance to reevaluate my actions and quite possibly leave the target of my insanity with merely a stern reminder that a certain percentage of the people one pisses off in life will be psychotic sociopaths. After taking a quick peek at the Subject: header of this missive, I assume that the point of this rambling soliloquy is that it has been true, throughout history, that "The Revolution is NOW!" That has long been the title of the Lists that I compose, using the 'old' Crayola colors, as Mr. Chainsaw spins eternally in the background, whispering to me that I may be all that stands between the mass of humanity and the Great Evil that seeks to destroy us. And (admit it...) the same is true of yourself. The revolution is *always* NOW, for each and every one of us. If today's one-and-only choice is between BillyG and LouieFreeh, then, risking the wrath of Attila T. Hun, I must declare that Bad BillyG is, indeed, my Best Friend In The Whole World (TM). Why? Because I believe that Linux versus WinDolt gives us better odds in the coming battles than Guns versus Nukes. And I believe that I have a better chance of survival to fight another day if I am firing warning shots over Micro$haft's head rather than over the heads of the the Great Beast whose lair is in DC. I try to judge BillyG and PhillyZ with the same standards that I use to make my personal judgements regarding Declan. I consider Declan to be a tried and true ally who has made it his mission in life to descend into the Belly of the Beast and report back to us where the 'soft targets' are, and warn us of the 'fools gold' that is being used to lure us all down a road that leads to the bottomless trough. I would be sad to have to put an end to his life if he someday returns from his descent with glazed eyes, blathering, "GAK is Good!" Bad BillyG has managed to become the richest and one of the most powerful people in the world while committing only minor atrocities while providing vast, if futurally questionable, benefits for humanity. I have no fondness for BillyG for knocking some of my computer industry friends on their ass while going for the big score, but neither do I have a fondness for my hockey opponents when they knock my teamates on their butt while I am watching from the players bench. Good PhillyZ, after having done an enormous amount of good in the arena of privacy and encryption, is now in a position of having to peek into the mouth of the Great Beast, in order to spread strong crypto into the area where the great mass of humanity resides. If he deems it useful or necessary to descend into the Belly of the Beast in order to work toward the spread of strong, privacy-enabling encryption, I do not plan to abandon him too readily and begin viewing him as the Enemy. At the same time, I reserve the right to make my own personal decision as to when it becomes necessary to put my friends or enemies out of 'my' misery, because the Revolution is NOW! Heaven and Earth are impartial; They see the ten thousand things as straw dogs. The wise are impartial; They see the people as straw dogs. It is too late in the game to waste time defending old definitions which no longer apply. The future is in motion, and there will be a great cost associated with not moving with it. Caesars throughout history have shown us that there is a thin line which separates allies, strange bedfellow, and enemies--and the line is constantly moving. We are fast approaching Instant Karma. The future is now. The Revolution is NOW! TruthMonger