Freemen and Serfs
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- There is a widely held belief that cryptoanarchy is an all or nothing proposition; that is, the future can be a glorious cryptoanarchy or a dismal police state. (I think this is Tim May's analysis, but perhaps others also contributed.) It isn't clear to me that these two environments cannot co-exist in a stable equilibrium. Historically, in many societies which practiced slavery, large numbers of people were neither slaves nor slave owners. Given the naivete of large portions of the population and certain alarming technologies such as implants which are emerging, it seems clear that large numbers of people will become little more than cattle in the near future. (Incidentally, I do not know that this will be "Joe Sixpack" and his friends. Many of those who are "success" oriented are also most willing to be drug tested, the most reluctant to question authority, and the least reluctant to be little more than a cog in the machine.) In any event, those who perceive their environment and respond correctly may continue to be free while others will take the other path. It's tragic, of course, but perhaps not our problem. Monty Cantsin is willing to spend only so much time and effort encouraging people to protect their privacy. There's no reason why cypherpunks can't do business with the slavers. That is, in exchange for various products requiring actual work, cypherpunks (a.k.a. knowledge workers) can provide technical expertise and other services. Once it is clear that enslaving a cypherpunk is expensive, it may be that the slavers of the world discover they can live with it and that it may even be a good deal for them. There might be some turmoil getting to that point, of course. Many U.S. citizens have been told they were free, although the ruling elite tends to see them as chattle. This difference of opinion will have to be resolved one way or another. Hopefully it will be done peacefully. Perhaps instead of seeing ourselves as "The Sons of Liberty" we should see ourselves as "The Sons of Tleilax". Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNHt1oJaWtjSmRH/5AQElrAf+Pabkko9LIMO+9cZ7oxgk2xWPIOA5p3rg 8IceSAIutsqF08Erg+Fz/vj7IUE928rpFBOUkndljJjiIe0iqdpdu+Fm+NASy9TX 8TFcXqIKq0BK2daBTSIg3/+A4f/RDvZrZTzzaI0NMd5M3pB2/AiB8InSoGTJTbqk 694L5+sqIc1BV5UBDNEbKulnyr21/nSZHIqz+pJGAZk5XAF21Sk0XYgNqfkKeVlP /eXP6wq5JFbZHhCRU3AT0SfNSdxmCl22+i6WWKCWMdHIV41zMSd9j2HFn83x6ehf u33/yw6MWuCMlm/RcjzXghWRWQPnq/iA1gGgxlUJFfSaRL8Gezs46w== =k6oZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
At 5:38 PM -0700 11/25/97, Anonymous wrote:
There is a widely held belief that cryptoanarchy is an all or nothing proposition; that is, the future can be a glorious cryptoanarchy or a dismal police state. (I think this is Tim May's analysis, but perhaps others also contributed.)
This is a common misunderstanding of what I (and others) have written. In particular, as just one item of many, I've never predicted that there will be some kind of overall "anarchy" (as normally understood, even in the anarcho-capitalist sense). Rather, I have predicted (correctly, so far) that certain people, certain organizations, certain entities will use the new "degrees of freedom" in anonymous, pseudonymous, untraceable, unsurveillable communications systems to bypass laws, mores, and dominant institutions. As we are seeing every day, more and more. The effect is to to create an environment without government intrusion. This is what I call crypto anarchy.
It isn't clear to me that these two environments cannot co-exist in a stable equilibrium. Historically, in many societies which practiced slavery, large numbers of people were neither slaves nor slave owners.
Sure, and I've said the same thing many times. The governments of the world are cracking down on "illegal thoughts," and illegal vegetables, illegal defense items, illegal television programs, and on and on. At the same time, bootleg channels are proliferating, copyright is being skirted, money laundering is exploding, and on and on. The crackdown has the effect of making the sheeple even more obedient and making the adventurers (the wolves?) even bolder. Technology works for those who use it. Very Nietzscheian. --Tim May The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^2,976,221 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:
Sure, and I've said the same thing many times. The governments of the world are cracking down on "illegal thoughts," and illegal vegetables, illegal defense items, illegal television programs, and on and on. At the same time, bootleg channels are proliferating, copyright is being skirted, money laundering is exploding, and on and on.
I am told that the recent criminalization of warez has led to a rush on crypto by the warez crowd. A certain Internet juke box I am aware of and which is serving months worth of uninterupted MP3's just might add SSL with client certs.
The crackdown has the effect of making the sheeple even more obedient and making the adventurers (the wolves?) even bolder. Technology works for those who use it.
Very Nietzscheian.
Futhermore, if using crypto gets you the gas chamber and putting a bullet through the head of a fed gets you the gas chamber, it stands to reason that more otherwise benign crypto users will be willing to put bullets through the heads of feds. See the war on illegal vegetables. -- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred. "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 11:36 AM 11/30/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
(I was chatting with a guy yesterday about a Steyr SSG sniper rifle I've had my eyes on. With a Kahles scope and match grade ammo, it's been shown to produce 9-inch groups at 1000 yards...just the thing for reaching out and touching someone. It turned out, after we'd talked for a while that he's with the SWAT team for one of the local major counties. He understands full well that many of those he may be called to go up against are equipping themselves with the most advanced countersniping weaponry available to anyone. )
What round does this thing fire? .223 Rem, .270 Win, .30-06, or .22LR (Just kidding!)? BTW, what kind of groups can I expect to get from a MAK-90?
As Lucky and others have noted, if the sentence for drug- or gun-dealing is death, as it is in more and more countries (when bribery fails, of course), then law enforcement will increasingly lead to Waco-type standoffs...military firefights.
Sounds like "If I'm dead anyway, I might as well take as many as I can with me." God help us if we ever come to that, because it would be ugly.
If this be war, unleash the dogs of war, or make the most of it, or however that line goes.
"If this be treason, let us make the most of it." -- Patrick Henry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5 iQA/AwUBNIIAvsJF0kXqpw3MEQK79gCfTU9TNUYu8W7C7/xD6+9UhqP4MBAAoNPY KN7+qZhrSmMN70B1GrYa8YGk =32aR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Jonathan Wienke PGP Key Fingerprints: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1 3A8F 778A 7407 2928 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA 4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams "Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people fulfill their potential." -- Jonathan Wienke Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child." RSA export-o-matic: print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
At 11:36 AM 11/30/1997 -0700, Tim May wrote:
And look for "copyright violators" to be sold to the public as a Fifth Horsemen. It may be a tough sell, claiming that those who sell CD-ROMs of Microsoft Office in Bangkok for $10 are on a par with nuclear terrorists,
It's not a tough sell at all, just a different sell. Rather than terrorizing businesses about NuclearNarcoPornoChildTerrorists, you encourage them into supporting Insured Key Management Hierarchies and Subpoenable Encryption, giving them protection against Intellectual Property Bandits at the minor cost of their own security, so _they_ won't get in the way of terrorizing the public, because they've got their business cases covered. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
At 12:10 PM -0700 11/30/97, Lucky Green wrote:
On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:
Sure, and I've said the same thing many times. The governments of the world are cracking down on "illegal thoughts," and illegal vegetables, illegal defense items, illegal television programs, and on and on. At the same time, bootleg channels are proliferating, copyright is being skirted, money laundering is exploding, and on and on.
I am told that the recent criminalization of warez has led to a rush on crypto by the warez crowd. A certain Internet juke box I am aware of and which is serving months worth of uninterupted MP3's just might add SSL with client certs.
And look for "copyright violators" to be sold to the public as a Fifth Horsemen. It may be a tough sell, claiming that those who sell CD-ROMs of Microsoft Office in Bangkok for $10 are on a par with nuclear terrorists, but the drumbeats of the WIPO (I think it is called), the OECD, the GATT, Software Publishers Association, etc., and concerned interest by Clinton and Magaziner and the rest of the Gang of the West (sorry for drifting into Youngspeak here) will cause more crackdowns. After all, if the SPA can initiate uninvited visits on corporations to look for unregistered copies of WordPerfect, surely the SPA/GATT/WIPO can order raids on C2Net for selling "unbreakable crypto" to "software pirates"? (Cynics might see increased enforcment of Microsoft's claimed property rights as part of the quid pro quo in the deal they eventually cut with the Justice Department, the consent decree MS enters into AND the consent decree Justice secretly enteres into. Such things are hardly new...it's how the New World Order Military-Industrial Complex has _always_ conducted business. Pressure is applied, deals are negotiated, and Cabinet officials become senior corporate officers after leaving the Beltway Swamp...and they don't even leave the swamp itself, except in title. )
The crackdown has the effect of making the sheeple even more obedient and making the adventurers (the wolves?) even bolder. Technology works for those who use it.
Very Nietzscheian.
Futhermore, if using crypto gets you the gas chamber and putting a bullet through the head of a fed gets you the gas chamber, it stands to reason that more otherwise benign crypto users will be willing to put bullets through the heads of feds. See the war on illegal vegetables.
Yep. Some of the cops I encounter at the range and elsewhere are _very_ nervous about the War on Nearly Everything that is going on. They understand that making more and more things felonies, and mandatory sentencing guidelines, is turning law enforcement increasingly into a military situation. Like Chicago during the height of Prohibition, where the Thompson submachine gun gained fame...and for unsurprisingly similar reasons.... Cops see the "other side" as having little to lose by responding in kind with firefights. (I was chatting with a guy yesterday about a Steyr SSG sniper rifle I've had my eyes on. With a Kahles scope and match grade ammo, it's been shown to produce 9-inch groups at 1000 yards...just the thing for reaching out and touching someone. It turned out, after we'd talked for a while that he's with the SWAT team for one of the local major counties. He understands full well that many of those he may be called to go up against are equipping themselves with the most advanced countersniping weaponry available to anyone. ) As Lucky and others have noted, if the sentence for drug- or gun-dealing is death, as it is in more and more countries (when bribery fails, of course), then law enforcement will increasingly lead to Waco-type standoffs...military firefights. If this be war, unleash the dogs of war, or make the most of it, or however that line goes. --Tim May The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^2,976,221 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
participants (5)
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Bill Stewart -
Jonathan Wienke -
Lucky Green -
nobody＠REPLAY.COM -
Tim May