Re: [REBUTTAL] Censorship on cypherpunks?, from The Netly News
At 06:34 ìì 13/11/1996 -0500, Mark M. wrote: (in response to):
Just as suddenly, the classic anti-free-speech arguments of "if you don't like it, start yer own" begin to surface. (Anyone ever notice how this resembles the "love it or leave it" mentality of certain American patriotic organizations?)
Governments maintain a monopoly on land, so the "love it or leave it" mentality is flawed. Virtual space does not have the same limitations as physical space. Starting your own mailing list is relatively easy.
Not at all easy, for a lot of people. Moreover, it's very time-consuming. It's only easy if you are prepared to put up with costs of time, money, and also... service providers (who don't always agree with you)... In a lot of places in the world, starting mailing lists is almost impossible unless you can be _inside_ an Internet Provider Company (and use Unix or whatever they use, in their own machines).
It is sad to note that this is the leader of one of America's forerunning organizations of freedom who says these words. For all *his* ideology of free speech, this statement reveals the hypocrasy he lives with for all to see. The true litmus test of free speech is to encounter speech that you *want* to censor.
The EFF protects against government censorship, not against "editorial control", "censorship", or whatever else you want to call it. I don't see this as hypocritical at all.
Perhaps cynical, though? :-)
Mr. Gilmore, and other like minded parties, might want to consider what would happen if one parent company owned *all* communications media. Would they they be so supportive of the ideology of ownership and communciation they espouse?
And just how plausible do you think this is? I believe it is next to impossible, unless it is the result of government regulation.
Man you're nutts. There are very few and quite vast Media Companies in the world, and they're on the verge of becoming monopolies. Even your American President is in reality a puppet of the Trilateral Commission, who effectively also control CNN, the Washington Post, and many many many other things all over the world. And you are saying that control of the media by ownership is impossible? You're far out maaan! :-) Only in America such a naive opinion could actually be _believed_. (here I go again... aga! :-) ) George P.S. Even if you offered me a million dollars I'd stay away from your country. My sanity is much more valuable. :-) (The Immigration Authorities in the U.S. have missed the point: We DON'T want to come to you guys. It's the last thing we'd want!)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, George A. Stathis wrote:
Not at all easy, for a lot of people. Moreover, it's very time-consuming. It's only easy if you are prepared to put up with costs of time, money, and also... service providers (who don't always agree with you)...
If setting up a new mailing list is that important to people, it will get done. There's nothing preventing people from pooling together resources to form a mailing list.
In a lot of places in the world, starting mailing lists is almost impossible unless you can be _inside_ an Internet Provider Company (and use Unix or whatever they use, in their own machines).
Some ISP's provide this service for not much more than the cost of a standard dial-up account. It certainly is possible for people to form a mailing list. Most people find whining a lot easier.
Man you're nutts. There are very few and quite vast Media Companies in the world, and they're on the verge of becoming monopolies.
Even your American President is in reality a puppet of the Trilateral Commission, who effectively also control CNN, the Washington Post, and many many many other things all over the world.
And you are saying that control of the media by ownership is impossible? You're far out maaan! :-)
Only in America such a naive opinion could actually be _believed_. (here I go again... aga! :-) )
Is this a troll?
George
P.S. Even if you offered me a million dollars I'd stay away from your country. My sanity is much more valuable. :-) (The Immigration Authorities in the U.S. have missed the point: We DON'T want to come to you guys. It's the last thing we'd want!)
finger -l for PGP key PGP encrypted mail prefered. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3 Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMoqvKSzIPc7jvyFpAQGtEggAuWVziHlb0UrImEJH1iZE5v5kv0z2gpgf +Xmndm3x06B7bl2DkV/Fm4/djjqMoFXgz9gUXqL8KHR7CAQtR+ASO1lJBRG952OY UJel2GlBstZjgDplOoktaLSJowsl2/1tukIzqBETSQ8Xq/0A5EZKnxgb9ktHot5v mA35NzQuRvJtZ9CSTmolZVByJ1+nya8KV/RUOgRNDSQDQi1eX/X24K6hZvsljgZh Db+aUH7+E6D2qagvzV1FIHJIcHq1XYvf8P8ABdu4PZPwvRtoL8gnh9Jyo2H4IWzI fKUOJzbHcPKD/TFVjZs6VRjWPfudStNKLKjmRFhT+jdy2j5J53rc9Q== =YYsl -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
George wrote:
At 06:34 =EC=EC 13/11/1996 -0500, Mark M. wrote: (in response to):
Governments maintain a monopoly on land, so the "love it or leave it"= mentality is flawed. Virtual space does not have the same limitations as physical space. Starting your own mailing list is relatively easy. Not at all easy, for a lot of people. Moreover, it's very time-consuming. It's only easy if you are prepared to put up with costs of time, money, and also... service providers (who don't always agree with you)...
It is not that difficult in term of money or access to start a mailing list. I believe there is a equation that operates in life that goes something like this: Intelligence + Money + Time * will = Results As one goes up, the other two can drop. Will is kinda nebulous, but is always less than result. I am not a rocket scientist, but I was able to get majordomo to work (to a degree) on a server I own, yes, I own the server, and no, I don't pay for it with cash. I do a favor for someone, and they gave me the machine (http://www.encodex.com/~pov to see the favor). The access is provided by some people I occasionally do work for, as long as the machine is not causing a problem, or too much bandwidth, they let me run it. This would make the equation: Intelligence + money + time * will = Result Some + 0 + a bit * some = A server with 4 or 5 mailing lists.
In a lot of places in the world, starting mailing lists is almost impossible unless you can be _inside_ an Internet Provider Company (and use Unix or whatever they use, in their own machines).
A simple mailing list could simply be a 8 dollar a month email account with a long .forward file.
Man you're nutts. There are very few and quite vast Media Companies in the world, and they're on the verge of becoming monopolies.
For every "tentacle" of the Vast Media Conglomerates, there is some loose nut with a photocopier (or access to Kinko's).
Even your American President is in reality a puppet of the Trilateral Commission, who effectively also control CNN, the Washington Post, and many many many other things all over the world.
WHO is nuts?
And you are saying that control of the media by ownership is impossible? You're far out maaan! :-) Only in America such a naive opinion could actually be _believed_. (here I go again... aga! :-) ) George P.S. Even if you offered me a million dollars I'd stay away from your country. My sanity is much more valuable. :-) (The Immigration Authorities in the U.S. have missed the point: We DON'T want to come to you guys. It's the last thing we'd want!)
One of these days reality is going to hit you like a runaway freight train. Petro, Christopher C. petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff> snow@smoke.suba.com
participants (3)
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George A. Stathis -
Mark M. -
snow