My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Cypherpunks, My posting seem to be going into Limbo, being sent neither to the Cypherpunks Heaven Sandy administers nor to the flames of the Cypherpunks Hell. At least this is how things now appear. I sent the message below to the list this morning (Thursday) at 8:43 a.m. PST. As of tonight, 12 hours later, I haven't seen it on either the Singapore Web site--last archived 30 minutes ago--or on the "Flames" list to which I have temporarily subscribed (to see what Sandy counts as a "flame"). Has anyone else seen it? I've looked, but there's always a chance I somehow spaced out and missed it. (I doubt it though.) If I have missed it, despite carefully scanning for it for the past 8-12 hours, my apologies. If it has not appeared on either the Censored list or the Flames list, then something is rotten in the state of Denmark. By the way, I noted that many of the messages which appeared at the Singapore Web archive site have dates much later than mine, including several dated at least 8-10 hours after my message. Likewise, some of the Flames messages are dated much later than my message. (Bill Stewart got a message through dated Thu, 06 Feb 1997 16:06:06 -0800, Mark Henderson got one through at Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:56:19 PST, and so on. One would thus have thought that my message, dated Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:43:35 -0800, would by now either have been approved and hence on the Censored list, or rejected as unfit for Cypherpunks to sully their neurons with, and hence passed on to the Flames list. By the way, some of the "Flames" messages are also dated late afternoon or evening.) So, is my message just sitting around someplace, awaiting some final decision? What's the basis of this decision? (Perhaps Sandy has "kicked it upstairs" to John for him to decide on? Just a hypothesis....) I will repeat my message below. As you will be able to see, my message contains no "flames" of its own, and the messages it quotes do not seem flamish to me, either. (It is true that Vulis uses the phrase "Limey faggots," in reference to beer-serving habits, but he does not directly insult any list members with this phrase. If Sandy is calling this phrase a flame, then Cypherpunks will be blocked from their usual characterizations of Congresscritters and NSA stooges.) I think a delay of greater than 11 hours in being distributed on one of the two lists (even if my message is sent out in the next hour or so) is unacceptable. If a moderator cannot get to traffic in the order in which it was received and disposition it promptly, he or she has no business being a moderator of a high-volume list. (Eric Blossom's and Ray Arachelian's "best of" compilations are a different matter, for reasons discussed many times here.) So, why hasn't this message appeared on one of the two lists? --Tim May
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:43:35 -0800 To: cypherpunks@toad.com From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy] Cc: Bcc: X-Attachments:
I decided to subscribe only to the "cypherpunks flames" list, just to see what was being filtered into it.
The message below is one example of what is going there. I received it, and the header includes the line: "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com", so I am surmising that it was indeed filtered into the flames list.
Now, admittedly, the _content_ of this kind of post is "off-topic," but I sure don't see any evidence of _flames_.
Is Sandy now filtering based on his notions of list relevance, and not just on the basis of insults, jabs, flames, and "lack of comity"? While lack of relevance may be a criterion for someone to filter by, it doesn't square with anything I recall Sandy citing, and it introduces a new and dimension to the debate.
--Tim May
(The entire post is included, to ensure that no one claims I am editing out any flames, insults, etc.)
At 11:06 PM -0800 2/5/97, Dale Thorn wrote:
Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in fact drunk, watch out!
If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.
Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)
I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial parties last night. It made the craps table action seem a bit merrier, and the girls were friendlier too.
I like an occasional Coors Lite. BTW I think Limey Faggots are right about one think: I like room-temperature beer better than cold beer. YMMV.
Interesting coincidence for people on opposite coasts - the bar at the hotel had two choices: Bud regular and Coors light. I took the Coors.
Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
At 10:57 PM -0800 2/6/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
My posting seem to be going into Limbo, being sent neither to the Cypherpunks Heaven Sandy administers nor to the flames of the Cypherpunks Hell. At least this is how things now appear.
It doesn't look familiar. I don't have any idea what happened. Can anyone tell me if they saw it on the unedited list? That's where I would have read it.
I reproduced the message in my message earlier tonight. Although there are no headers to show routing, since I sent it but never received it, I can assure you it was marked by Eudora as "Sent," and my ISP has reported no delivery problems of any sort. Thus, based on past experiences with thousands of such sendings, I surmise with great certainty that my message was mailed successfully to cypherpunks@toad.com. What happened to if after that I cannot say, but I suspect something related to the "Moderation" process, by Ockham's Razor. There seem to be more "lost" messages than before this "Moderation" thing began. I literally sent thousands of messages (maybe tens of thousands...) and cannot recall a "lost" message. Now, it's happened to me a couple of times that I can recall, and to at least some others, based on recent messages. I thought the basic equation was: UNEDITED = MAIN + FLAMES, with MAIN and FLAMES being disjoint. It's looking now more like: UNEDITED = MAIN + FLAMES + DROPPED/LOST Possibly the fault lies in the software Sandy is using to sort the messages, possibly elsewhere. Whatever, this needs to be fixed immediately, or the experiment abandoned immediately. --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
My posting seem to be going into Limbo, being sent neither to the Cypherpunks Heaven Sandy administers nor to the flames of the Cypherpunks Hell. At least this is how things now appear.
It doesn't look familiar. I don't have any idea what happened. Can anyone tell me if they saw it on the unedited list? That's where I would have read it. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vulis has sent me private mail, which I won't quote here because of the usual netiquette standards that private mail not be quoted (though it's legal to do so). He asserts that a few weeks ago he sent criticisms of Stronghold out to the Cypherpunks list, and the criticisms did not appear on any of the distributed lists. He claims he then received communications from C2Net of a legal nature, threatening him with legal action. I'll let Vulis elaborate if he wishes, as I don't know the situation. And I encourage him to do so, for more than one reason. As I just replied to "Against Moderation" on, I would like to see these articles which were suppressed. Please repost them to the list, and copy me to ensure that I get them. If this claim is true, that Sandy blocked criticism of Stronghold from reaching either the Main list (bad enough), or from even going out at all on the Flames list (reprehensible), then this is an extremely serious charge. If the claim is true that Sandy used articles sent to the Cypherpunks list, but never distributed to the list, as the basis by the company which employs him of legal threats of any kind, then this is even more than just "extremely serious." I would like to hear more from Vulis, and copies of any such articles, and of course would like to hear Sandy's version of things. This is too serious a charge not to resolve. --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
participants (2)
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Sandy Sandfort -
Timothy C. May