-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <3.0.1.32.19970319085818.007cf9a0@smtp1.abraxis.com>, on 03/19/97 at 07:58 AM, camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) said:

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At 12:42 AM 3/19/97 -0600, you wrote:

*|>Parents most certainly are not the only ones to determine the welfare of *|>their children; society has assumed a significant role and typically moves *|>to protect the child from the parents or from the _beliefs_ of the *|>parents.

Dear whgiii,

Children are, also, possessors of certain inalienable rights.

Parents have certain _privileges_ in regard to their children which others do not have; if the parents abuse the _rights_ which their children possess solely by virtue of being humans and citizens, the state is obligated to intervene on behalf of the child--a citizen. In just the same way that if I were to threaten or batter you (or visa versa) the state would interpose itself to protect me.

No I totaly disagree. Parents have *Rights* in reguard to their children. It is the STATE who has privilages and is abusing those privilages. Children do not have the same rights that adults do under the constitution (this is not to say that they have none). Should I be able to murder my children because they have become inconvient? NO. Should I be able to punish my child without fear of retribution by a bunch of nardoweller bureaucrats who feal that a parent should never punish a child. YES!!!

_With reservations_ I grant you parents have _great_ leeway in the areas of religious training, education, medical care, general child rearing (punishment/reward). When parents overstep either by action or neglect, society intervenes.

They have NO right to do so! They are my children and I will rase them as *I* see fit, not how you see fit, not how the church or the PTA sees fit, and most definatly not how the scumbags in Washington see fit!! (Would you trust Ted Kenedy to rase *YOUR* daughter???).

I _understand_ your point that in an ideal society the government would not intervene. At this point, though, we don't seem to be there.

It's not a matter of an ideal society as the can never be obtained due to the fact we all have different ideals on what that society should be. My point is that from the dawn of time since man climbed out of the trees it has been the parents would raised & were responcible for their children. It has only been recient with the advent of the Socialist that the belief that children should be raised by the STATE in cookie cutter fasion.

Alec

What's the point of the following? Discourse is healthy in an open system. Why the exclusion?

*|Perhaps you should take your STATIST tendicies over to alt.hitler.fanclub *|as they are quite out of place here.

No perhaps I should have worded it better. I was tring to highligh that such STATIST beliefs were at direct odds with the the beliefs of freedom & privacy that the members of this group advocate. I am more than will to disscuss this topic here as it higlight those who believe in the "cause" and those who just give it lip service. (hopfully making a few converts along the way. <G>)

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File has signature. Public key is required to check signature. . Good signature from user "Alec McCrackin ". Signature made 1997/03/19 13:58 GMT using 1024-bit key, key ID 41207EE5  WARNING: Because this public key is not certified with a trusted signature, it is not known with high confidence that this public key actually belongs to: "Alec McCrackin ".

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- -- - ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info - ----------------------------------------------------------- Tag-O-Matic: This marks Logical End-Of-Message. Physical EOM follows -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000 iQCVAwUBMzAlLI9Co1n+aLhhAQGi4AP/ckCYbO09aQc+0NUsGLwedQdF6xj8Ynsp 6CJ1EMm+Rf2Gu7QKVMJwMeauOG+wJoWpEAMVtwD4kg226s+vzUpCyPnnNeGpqIio niq1c9AjgwWAqID2/9PyuZw52bv0BSxN0J25IIGcXBHClEVUv6jbU6jH8Wrg+yCJ /95OUW0T844= =QNgo -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

William H. Geiger III wrote:

(Would you trust Ted Kenedy to rase *YOUR* daughter???). ^^^^

This word is not in my dictionary. Perhaps the word you were looking for is 'rape'. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html

Vulis wrote:

Out in the hobbsian wild, if the parents abuse their offsprings (kill them, fail to train them), then the offsprings won't reproduce and the parent's genes won't perpetuate. Do we really need a more coersive system of punishing "child abuse"?

We don't (yet) live in the "hobbsian wild". Children do what they are taught. If the are taught to react to the slightest provocation with violence, then they will, when they grow up (notice I didn't say mature), react similarly. If we wish to live in a society of reasonable people, our children need to be raised respond reasonably to provocation. This means get violent when, and only when necessary. So, yes. I would say we need a fairly coersive system for punishing child abuse. We also need a clear defination of what child abuse really is.