pseudospoofing ad nauseam
- another Mailing List - the Fires in my Mailbox - on the Unequivocal Distinction of Pseudoanonymity - my Position and a Modest Proposal Crystallized - an Open Letter to Criminals and Terrorists - the Story of the Cyberspatial Lynch Mob - on Pseudospoofing by the Eminent Leaders - L. Detweiler's Complete Confession another Mailing List == I would like to hear from any cypherpunks interested in starting another mailing list. I unfortunately lack the resources to start one. It seems to me there would be a strong interest in the following agenda: - in favor of Democracy and experimenting with voting systems - in favor of some form of Government, and some form of law enforcement - in favor of experimenting with reputation schemes - in favor of some identification systems, esp. to catch criminals - in favor of a `movement' that includes political aspects - in favor of a totally open, honest, representative, polite, respectful, egalitarian dialogue - in favor of systematic development and progress reports to others - in favor of presenting a professional appearance to the public and media - in favor of `some' restrictions on communications to limit criminality - in favor of putting together protocols, RFCs, and FAQs for the world - against Clipper or any involuntary encryption scheme - against behind-the-scenes machinations (`conspiracies') or elitism - against tax evasion - against black marketeering - against pseudospoofing and pseudoanonymity - against other criminal behaviors like impersonation and forgery - against routine hostility, secrecy, and flames - against manipulating the media or individual ego-assuagement - against people only interested in tedious debates or popularity contests Above all, in favor of `using technology, especially cryptographic techniques, to accomplish promote all of the above.' I don't really know how many current cypherpunks would be interested in this agenda. Judging by my mail, NONE! <g> But seriously, I think there are some more `moderate' cypherpunks out there who would really love this agenda, and their existence has long caused a lot of tension on this list over the above points, when what is really happening is that there is a tension in fundamentally incompatible goals and views underneath it all, such that we could all be better served by better `organization' (or perhaps `segragation' or `sequestration' <g>). Regarding the above agenda: we should recognize that all great technologies can be used for different purposes. The internet can be used for honest communication between strangers, or it can be used to manipulate people who naturally trust each other. We can develop digital cash schemes that encourage tax evasion and black marketeering, or they can enforce some taxation and discourage criminal behavior for overall social harmony (quite like the system we currently live under). Nothing is inevitable with passivity, everything is possible with activity! As I recall, a long time ago, in a very hot flame war over the Cypherpunks name involving all the great luminaries (E.Hughes, T.C.May, P.Metzger, etc.) T.C.May ended up posting a message near the dying embers of the flames that indicated some of the other names that he and E.Hughes had tossed around. Does anyone have that message? Could you send it to me? I thought there were some interesting names in there, as I recall. I wouldn't want to take anyway from the existing cypherpunk agenda in promoting something that was entirely incompatible with it under the same name. The public and the media would certainly be confused (as if they aren't already)! I was thinking -- maybe the `cypherwonks'. (Ever hear about Bill Clinton being a `policy wonk'?) As for the mailing list, if anyone starts one I promise you my personal cyberspatial allegiance as long as it sticks to this above agenda, and humbly offer you all the things I have done on this list over about 10 months or so, like forwarding articles, summarizing views, `cypherwonk awards', mini-newsletters, hot controversy, analysis of press reports, Clipper & NSA flames, D.Denning ridicule <g>, etc. if you provide a highly literate, polite, and professional audience. Just imagine, all of you in the L. Detweiler Hate Society (the membership has quite grown lately!) -- you could be freed of all the flames here over everything I stand for! I'm *sure* you will appreciate that. <g> the Fires in my Mailbox == yes, the flames in my mailbox have really died down. It's gone from
I'm going to come and kill your family with a rusty razor blade.
to
It would seem that, as you are a victim of such TERRIBLE CRIMES, your "RIGHT" has BEEN alienated someWHAT.
ah, I have to settle for what I can get, even if it is sarcastic. on the Unequivocal Distinction of Pseudoanonymity == (So, because I am insane, I am writing more on the subject of pseudospoofing, as more carrion for the amusement of vultures.) It really astounds me how many people continue to write me email obfuscating the distinction between anonymous/pseudonymous mail vs. pseudoanonymous. In the former category, the identification in the message says or implies, `this could be from *anyone*.' `passive concealment'. In the latter, the identification implies, `this is from a real person named [x], distinct from any other real people named [y].' Also, many continue to ignore the sheer dangers of this practice. If anyone does not understand and has not seen my essay `The Joy of Pseudospoofing', please email me and I will send it to you. (If you have seen it, and continue to miss the point, well, I can't help you. As Ann Landers says, seek professional counseling.) my Position and a Modest Proposal Crystallized == I fear my position has been accidentally misrepresented on this list by people who wish to understand pseudospoofing, or intentionally obfuscated phantoms who wish to demonize me. (Once, a long time ago, I flamed D.Denning with such searing ire on this list. T.C.May suggested that `demonizing' anyone was counterproductive and impolite. Point well taken! What goes around comes around!) Here is what I propose for the Internet. 1) a *voluntary* system whereby people who want to `authenticate' their identities can do so by registering with some form of identification. 2) identification servers could be formed that would service requests in the form, `is identity [x] a real person?' 3) hence, people who choice to screen pseudospoofed identities from their mailboxes have the choice of subscribing to a system that allows them this freedom of choice. Such a system, in my view, is NOT Draconian, NOT Orwellian, NOT against the grain of the Internet, and actually feasible in practice. And, in fact I think some form of this is *inevitable*. (and, believe it or not, contrary to the brainwashing, this is *not* incompatible with `true' or `pure' anonymity, which is quite another issue entirely.) Mr. Finney suggested this scheme for `is a person' certificates many messages ago. I fervently believe this system is going to be inevitable because of its high social usefulness and desirability. I'll bet anyone $1 in digital cash the most popular version of Cyberspace is going to have at *least* this much. an Open Letter to Criminals and Terrorists == Many people have been using all kinds of euphemisms for condoning brutality in referring to pseudospoofing etc. `anyone who doesn't know how the internet works deserves to learn the hard way.' `anyone who is stupid enough not to recognize that pseudospoofing is a fact of life should go somewhere else with padded walls and handholding, like Prodigy.' (etc.) But all you vicious cypherpunks, recognize: the world is not as unrefined and raw as you yourselves are, as much as you say it is and wish it were. The greatest and most omnipresent technology is that which is simple and incorruptable. The widespread public can be frightened very easily! and will gravitate toward a system that promotes trust and honesty, because they themselves crave trust and honesty. it is a total fantasy if you think you are going to get away with your imaginary identity arsenals in the future civilized cyberspace. yes, there may be some bloody battles, but you are going to lose. Or, at least, as I was telling an eminent member of EFF, if you do not lose, and I have not died in the battle, I think I will commit suicide. Inevitably, some of you are going to want to sabotage a system that prevents pseudospoofing -- `because its there' -- even if doing so is against the law. I am absolutely AGHAST how much raw criminality is being disguised here in `the cryptographic revolution' and `privacy for the masses' brainwashing. From my mail, a very strong representation of cypherpunks are in favor of, perhaps routinely, FORGING things like birth certificates etc. in the name of PRIVACY. this they disguise under views like, `those damned Big Corporations and Government are Evil, and we have to do everything we can to stop their oppression.' uh, how exactly are you being oppressed? you look at the bountiful fruits of our society and think you are being deprived? `whatever system you will invent, someone will break it.' well, yes, this is like saying, `criminals exist.' there are these cypherpunks who have created an entire *religion* out of *defying* and *sabotaging* whatever identification scheme is invented. Let it be signatures, checks, birth certificiates, drivers licenses, social security, etc. How many cypherpunks are reincarnated thieves, anyway? What society do you people live in, anyway? do you think that checks with your True Name invade your privacy? do you think your bank, associates, or the government doesn't have a right to know who you are? (Uh, rhetorical question. I know the answer.) I hold this as an AXIOM, an Inalienable Human Right: you do NOT have the right to guarantee that another particular individual will read your pseudospoofed postings. If they choose to develop a system that filters it and do all their communication within it, I think you're out of luck (yes, the technique of pseudoanonymity will always be possible in frivolous amusement parks and other various quarantined playpens.) If you think otherwise, well, I guess those bloody battles have already started, haven't they? Frankly, I think quite a few cypherpunks have seriously deluded themselves about the basic nature of the Internet and the ultimate desirability and likelihood of certain protocols (and their own influence in manipulating them). The mail I have been getting is just so far beyond reality, I can barely even respond to it. As (I think) Linus Pauling once said after coming out of a talk, after prompted by a student, `It wasn't even wrong'. This would not be a problem, but in my view you cypherpunks, with your pseudospoofing, forgeries, and sabotage, are really poisoning Cyberspace. Excuse me, I live here too, and it is all choking me. the Story of the Cyberspatial Lynch Mob == Here is one aspect of pseudospoofing I haven't really addressed yet publicly. `As for people being tricked into seeing a consensus when one does not exist, who cares?' The person who asked me this was referring to a scenario like this. Imagine that Medusa has grown quite a few snakes in cyberspace, and uses them all in a single disinformation campaign. `who cares?' To answer this, consider the psychology and anatomy of a lynch mob. In frontier days, this was the notion of `criminal justice' -- a mob of people would catch a criminal, supposedly the perpetrator of heinous crimes. I suspect pseudo-trials went on even in these `mob societies'. you see, a mob is often comprised of people with a slight glimmer of conscience individually. A leader will often arise who manipulates that doubt so that it is turned into vicious hatred, almost animal brutality, to serve the aims of the public lynching. `What did this man do?' the leader might ask, somewhat rhetorically. `He stole my gold!' says one. `He raped my wife!' says another. `He murdered my brother!' says the other. At this point, as you can imagine, the rest of the mob needs no further motivation. If they are too impatient to watch the `criminal's' eyes bulge out from the asphyxiating rope, or are in a particularly vindictive mood, they might even rip or bludgeon the `criminal' to oozing brains and blood, meat strips, and poking bones with their bare hands, all with the barest encouragement like `what are we going to DO ABOUT IT?' from the Leader. Ah -- Justice is Served -- but what if the `Leader' is Medusa? And `one' is Snake #1, `another' is Snake #2, and `the other' is Snake #3? on Pseudospoofing by the Eminent Leaders == By the way, some people have said to me in email that E.Hughes and T.C.May have publicly condemned pseudospoofing, or at least indicated they have not ever practiced it, or at least they are not doing it routinely, or at least that they are not doing it at the moment, or at least they hate the term `pseudospoof', or whatever. <g> If so, please send me those messages. I missed them. (I have asked them to post on the subject, but these letters invariably go unanswered. They are exceedingly evasive in my private email. In fact, Mr. May said that he was quite tired of my enthusiams, and I have so upset Mr. Hughes that he has given me the great honor of putting me, alone, in solitary confinement, into his kill file. `plonk!') The only statements I have are the following: ``That which can never be enforced should not be prohibited. The claim that a person should have only one pseudonym per forum indicates profound misunderstanding. If someone wants to have multiple ... pseudonyms, they will be able to; that is one of the main goals of cypherpunks software. The situations you despise will occur. This is reality. Change your own psychology or change your own software. You will not be able to change the other person.'' --E.Hughes, cofounder, Cypherpunks ``Better to live with the occasional vagaries of digital pseudonyms than to ban them.'' --T.C.May, cofounder, Cypherpunks L. Detweiler's Complete Confession == By the way, just to encourage others to come clean, express my good will and sense of ethics to all the cypherpunks on this list, and whiten my own conscience, following is my public posting of the list of all the pseudoanonymous identities I have ever posted or emailed under:
I would like to hear from any cypherpunks interested in starting another mailing list. I unfortunately lack the resources to start one.
If there is enough interest, I am willing to host it (using an automatic listserver such as Majordomo - I already have it set up anyway...). I do feel there is a need for a split, as the current list just keeps oscillating between wildly different subtopics. But I am not sure about what the right split would be... Julf (occasionally masquerading as an0@anon.penet.fi)
there are these cypherpunks who have created an entire *religion* out of *defying* and *sabotaging* whatever identification scheme is invented.
Amen, brother L.
do you think your bank, associates, or the government doesn't have a right to know who you are?
Nope. They can have my unforgeable credentials, though. Eli ebrandt@jarthur.claremont.edu
there are these cypherpunks who have created an entire *religion* out of *defying* and *sabotaging* whatever identification scheme is invented. Let it be signatures, checks, birth certificiates, drivers licenses, social security, etc. How many cypherpunks are reincarnated thieves, anyway? What society do you people live in, anyway? do you think that checks with your True Name invade your privacy? do you think your bank, associates, or the government doesn't have a right to know who you are? (Uh, rhetorical question. I know the answer.)
Actually, I still do not think he knows the answer. However, the second part of the question is more relevant. No, the bank, my associates, or the government does not have the right to know who I am simply because I exist and do business with them. Those entities should only know what I tell them, nothing more. The current trend towards Big Brotherism in the *real* world is why I'm a cypherpunk. I wish to control my own information, not some faceless bank, credit beaurau, or other possibly wrong information provider. -- Pat Hykkonen ** N5NPL ** pat@tstc.edu ** CNSA -- (817) 867-4831 Disclaimer: This product may cause irritability in some users. In cases of allergic reaction, delete and consult a physician immediately.
I'm sure that few folks want to unsheathe the pro- and con- spoofing arguments again. But Patrick's last post got me thinking: Does the government have the right to know how much money I make, and from what sources? The IRS says yes, absolutely. But Eric Hughes, in a talk given at San Francisco State University, said, in response to a question from an audience, that international digital banking will make it very difficult for a national government to track monetary exchanges, and thereby tax them. Furthermore, I deduced from the gleam in his eye that Eric thought that this was a Good Thing (correct me if I misconstrued you, Eric). Right now, there seems to be a kind of social contract between us and the government: it protects us, provides free schools, etc etc, in exchange for which we have to pony up a fair share of our earnings. It follows, doesn't it, that the government has a right to enforce its laws saying that everyone must pay that fair share of taxes? To enforce that rule, it has a right, under certain conditions, to rummage around in our records to see if we have hidden any income source from them. This may or may not be Big Brother. But it does seem to be the modus operandi of every government that ever was. The point: concerns of privacy often come in conflict with the larger obligations of public good. We can't say categorically that one must always predominate. What do you think?
Boy I hope we don't start a Libertarian/Liberal flame war about taxes, the gov't, and the social contract (or lack thereof). I will just point out that it was the *founders* of the IRS who thought that the gov't had no right to know how much money you make. That's why the IRS was set up separately from the rest of the gov't, why it's supposed to not share data with the rest of the gov't (yeah, right), and why the income tax was ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Ct... Of course, that's all dark history today that no one studies or takes seriously. Sigh. --Alan
..
right to know how much money you make. That's why the IRS was set up separately from the rest of the gov't, why it's supposed to not share data with the rest of the gov't (yeah, right), and why the income tax was ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Ct...
Of course, that's all dark history today that no one studies or takes seriously. Sigh.
--Alan
The latest "Wired," 1.6, has an article entitled "Big Brother Wants to Look Into Your Bank Account (any time it pleases)." It describes how FinCEN, the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, cross-refererence IRS records. (I've been curious about FinCEN since around early 1990, when I first heard about its formation--as a joint task force of Treasury, State, NSA, FBI, etc.--and this article in "Wired" has filled in a lot of gaps. Suffice it to say that FinCEN is likely _very_ interested in our schemes for money-laundering, tax evasion, black markets, and collapse of the U.S. and other governments.) By the way, I generally avoid here the well-trodden ground of libertarian politics, anarcho-capitalism, the "duties" one putatively owes the State, and so on. One should not take my unwillingness to "debate the basics" to mean assent for the views others express here. --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it.
international digital banking will make it very difficult for a national government to track monetary exchanges, and thereby tax them. Furthermore, I deduced from the gleam in his eye that Eric thought that this was a Good Thing
I think that increasing the ability of parties to transact in private, such that neither the contents nor the existence of a transaction is revealed, is a Very Good Thing. I do not believe that it is prudent for governments to continue to fund themselves on transaction taxes, such as income tax. Government exists primarily because of the facts of geography, properties of territory and boundary. The digital world is not a geographic one, and the geographic model of government is not appropriate for it. Please respond to my personal email address. Eric
Arthur Chandler says:
Right now, there seems to be a kind of social contract between us and the government: it protects us, provides free schools, etc etc, in exchange for which we have to pony up a fair share of our earnings. It follows, doesn't it, that the government has a right to enforce its laws saying that everyone must pay that fair share of taxes?
You are asking a political, not a technical, question. Personally, I don't believe there is such a thing as a social contract -- I never signed anything, and from what I can tell the terms on the social contract are ones I would never have accepted. I would be happy to purchase what the goverment give me on the open market -- I see no need for government to be involved in mail delivery or garbage collection or schools or any of the other things it runs -- from what I can tell all it touches turns to crap. However, this entire topic belongs on places like talk.politics.misc, not cypherpunks. I would suggest that it be conducted elsewhere. Perry
This may or may not be Big Brother. But it does seem to be the modus operandi of every government that ever was.
Alas for the large nation-states, this is not the case. There are many small governments that don't have this notion, and in exchange for various considerations (primarily patronizing the financial services of their country), are more than willing to pay little or no attention to issues of how much money one makes, or where the it came from. The boon of secure, anonymous digital transactions is that it's not real clear exactly *where* they happen, and if the digital money to real world money interface takes place in one of these financial ports of convenience, it bodes ill for the taxability of these transactions. While I believe that it is A Good Thing, I also agree with you that the nation-states will not go down without a pretty good fight, and that this will have the effect in the near term of limiting the extent of this practice. Others believe that existing governments are sufficiently rotten and spent that they will just keel over under the weight of these activities; I'm not so sure. -- ---------------- /\ Douglas Barnes cman@illuminati.io.com / \ Chief Wizard (512) 448-8950 (d), 447-7866 (v) / () \ Illuminati Online metaverse.io.com 7777 /______\
participants (10)
-
Alan (Gesture Man) Wexelblat -
Arthur Chandler -
cman@IO.COM -
Eli Brandt -
hughes@ah.com -
Johan Helsingius -
L. Detweiler -
pat@tstc.edu -
Perry E. Metzger -
tcmay@netcom.com