At 5:14 PM 8/22/96, Bruce M. wrote:
Web Week, July 8, 1996, p3
The Postal Service's attorneys have told the USPS that the tampering part of the current federal law would transfer to the electronic space, and that the mail fraud portion might also apply...
"We're a trusted third party," Saunders said. "We don't have any interest in learning your trade secrets...
Back in June I attended a presentation on this from Paul Raines, who is running the program. As I recall, there were three services they were planning to offer. 1. A time-stamping service. This is basically a remailer - you would send email to the USPS site, which would add a digital timestamp and signature, then forward the message to it's ultimate recipient. Customers wishing to use the service would deposit a sum of money with the USPS, which would be debited for each use of the service (suggested cost was on the order of 25 cents/message) 2. A CA service. Keys would be signed at various levels of assurance. At least at the start, business strength keys would be issued only at Postal Business centers, which are in about 100 cities in the US. 3. An archival service. For a fee, the USPS would store copies of all of the email you send though it's remailer. Only the sender could retrieve it, short of a court order. In answer to a direct question, Raines said that user-encrypted data was OK. Raines claimed the following advantages: * The contents would be subject to the postal fraud statutes. * People would trust a message received through the remailer more than one which was not. * IRS tax filings sent through the Postal system can arrive after April 15, provided they are postmarked before that time. Tax filings sent by other methods must be received at the IRS before midnight on the 15th. * Approximate quote: "When business negotiate a deal, they do it over the phone, in person, etc. But when the deal is closed, what do they do? They write a letter, and send it via registered mail through the USPS." * As a CA, the USPS was a known and trusted entity overseas, unlike commercial CA services. Some specific counter arguments: Fraud protection: If a person was intending to commit fraud, why would he or she send the message through the USPS remailer? Since the service is costly, most email will never be sent through it, and there will not develop a tendency to regard non-USPS email as untrustworthy. IRS filings: If I send a tax filing to the USPS remailer at 23:45 on April 15th, it gets a pre-midnight timestamp and is accepted by the IRS as being on time. If I send an email tax filing directly to the IRS at 23:45, it is also accepted (and if I was that desparate, I could also bounce the message through Hawaii, or US Samoa, and get several more hours of grace) Also, I was under the impression that the IRS now accepted FedEx timestamps for tax filings. Finally, the amount of business which this represents is miniscule. Closing deals: Ever hear of faxes or FedEx? My personal impression was that Raines had been listening to his own propaganda for too long, and was rather out of touch with the way things are done outside of the Beltway. I got the feeling that the USPS was desperately trying to find a role in a time where it was becoming merely the cheapest and slowest player in the package delivery business. Peter Trei ptrei@acm.org [Disclaimer: I am not representing my employer.]
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In <199608231401.HAA10139@toad.com>, on 08/23/96 at 10:01 AM,
"Peter Trei"
Closing deals: Ever hear of faxes or FedEx?
My personal impression was that Raines had been listening to his own propaganda for too long, and was rather out of touch with the way things are done outside of the Beltway. I got the feeling that the USPS was desperately trying to find a role in a time where it was becoming merely the cheapest and slowest player in the package delivery business.
Ahhh... But you truly miss the buety of this system. Once in place all the goverment needs to do is ban all e-mail not sent through their system. Add this to the outlawing of all non-keyescrowed encryption, and the ability to archive all messages sent through their system. Now the goverment would have total access to everything you wright. Eventually they could get rid of all snail-mail. Put in place scaners with OCR, handwrighting reconition & voice dictation in local post offices for those without Inet access. The even BIGGER PICTURE: Eventually we will not have dial-up internet access the way it is today. Mater of fact we will not have phone systems the way we have today. Instead we will have 1 huge network, a SuperIneternet, inwhich all homes & business are connected. For those without computers in their homes will be small dumb terminals that will let them connect & provide basic services (such devices are being developed right now). In such a system anyone could be monitored, at any time. Sound far fetched? The technology is here now to do this. Just remember that the "powers to be" don't think in terms of months or years but decades. It may take 20-30yrs for such a system to be fully implimented. "They" are very patient. 1984? no, 2084 without a doubt! - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!! Merlin Beta Test Site - WarpServer SMP Test Site Author of PGPMR2 - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info - ----------------------------------------------------------- MR/2 Tag->Windows: Just another pane in the glass. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMh6EZI9Co1n+aLhhAQGh9QQAht8JS5rNOLyk3m8XlcXyjEFr5meerldB 9wDqhnaHJbgLmgC2NNcvAcYgGpAQfMRDHwzBXPX0PBCndXk87BfppFtnvexGOhgh gD/170jrgbGbH1CDAvOCxtv4Hp0kM6qk1yO2IJcfPjhPZqD/mPyeUwV/MEpw4blE iFUfY4Uvvsg= =pho2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- MR/2 Tag->Windows NT? New Technology? I don't think so...
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In <199608231401.HAA10139@toad.com>, on 08/23/96 at 10:01 AM,
"Peter Trei"
Closing deals: Ever hear of faxes or FedEx?
My personal impression was that Raines had been listening to his own propaganda for too long, and was rather out of touch with the way things are done outside of the Beltway. I got the feeling that the USPS was desperately trying to find a role in a time where it was becoming merely the cheapest and slowest player in the package delivery business.
Ahhh... But you truly miss the buety of this system. Once in place all the goverment needs to do is ban all e-mail not sent through their system. Add this to the outlawing of all non-keyescrowed encryption, and the ability to archive all messages sent through their system. Now the goverment would have total access to everything you wright. Eventually they could get rid of all snail-mail. Put in place scaners with OCR, handwrighting reconition & voice dictation in local post offices for those without Inet access. The even BIGGER PICTURE: Eventually we will not have dial-up internet access the way it is today. Mater of fact we will not have phone systems the way we have today. Instead we will have 1 huge network, a SuperIneternet, inwhich all homes & business are connected. For those without computers in their homes will be small dumb terminals that will let them connect & provide basic services (such devices are being developed right now). In such a system anyone could be monitored, at any time. Sound far fetched? The technology is here now to do this. Just remember that the "powers to be" don't think in terms of months or years but decades. It may take 20-30yrs for such a system to be fully implimented. "They" are very patient. 1984? no, 2084 without a doubt! - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!! Merlin Beta Test Site - WarpServer SMP Test Site Author of PGPMR2 - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info - ----------------------------------------------------------- MR/2 Tag->Windows: Just another pane in the glass. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMh6EZI9Co1n+aLhhAQGh9QQAht8JS5rNOLyk3m8XlcXyjEFr5meerldB 9wDqhnaHJbgLmgC2NNcvAcYgGpAQfMRDHwzBXPX0PBCndXk87BfppFtnvexGOhgh gD/170jrgbGbH1CDAvOCxtv4Hp0kM6qk1yO2IJcfPjhPZqD/mPyeUwV/MEpw4blE iFUfY4Uvvsg= =pho2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, William H. Geiger III wrote:
Once in place all the goverment needs to do is ban all e-mail not sent through their system. Add this to the outlawing of all non-keyescrowed encryption, and the ability to archive all messages sent through their system. Now the goverment would have total access to everything you wright.
Why not? I believe it is already illegal to place anything in a person's physical mail box that the post office hasn't processed. For the sake of preserving the 'integrity and security' of the Internet I can see the govt. taking such future actions. ________________________________ [ Bruce M. - Feist Systems, Inc. ] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "Official estimates show that more than 120 countries have or are developing [information warfare] capabilities." -GAO/AIMD-96-84 So, what is your excuse now?
On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Bruce M. wrote: If u think this is a worry, u should take a look at what the government owned monoploly telco here in Australia is doing.. On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Bruce M. wrote:
On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, William H. Geiger III wrote: >
Once in place all the goverment needs to do is ban all e-mail not sent through their system. Add this to the outlawing of all non-keyescrowed encryption, and the ability to archive all messages sent through their system. Now the goverment would have total access to everything you wright.
Why not? I believe it is already illegal to place anything in a person's physical mail box that the post office hasn't processed. For the sake of preserving the 'integrity and security' of the Internet I can see the govt. taking such future actions.
Or 'they' can use our Telco (Tel$tra) 's approach and introduce _timecharged_ local data calls as it is trying to do here in Australia. What better or easier way to destroy our meagre outlet for free speech than to cost it out of existance. See Stewart Fist's excellent article on the subject currently available on "The Australian" newspapers site: <A HREF="http://www.australian.aust.com/computer/columns/fistcom.htm"> See also draft legislation at <A HREF="http://www.dca.gov.au/govtpol.html"> and Universal Telco Service Obligations at <A HREF="http://www.dca.gov.au/"> (many references) They took our firearms last month..they're comin back for the net this month. -- .////. .// Charles Senescall apache@quux.apana.org.au o:::::::::/// Fuck TEL$TRA
::::::::::\\\ Finger me for PGP PUBKEY Brisbane AUSTRALIA '\\\\\' \\ http://quux.apana.org.au/~apache/ DO something for your country: Butt slap a politician this xmas
participants (4)
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Bruce M. -
Charles Senescall -
Peter Trei -
William H. Geiger III