Re: Los Angeles Times article on Helsingius and anon.penet.fi
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John Gilmore wrote:
PS: I would counsel against the kind of false anonymity provided by the Finnish server, though. Providing information under the promise that it will "never be revealed or misused" is a lot more dangerous than never providing it at all. E.g. "Anonymous cash" that is really based on dossiers or account-numbers isn't anonymous at all. Even physical cash is getting easier to trace; the British government has been tracking money by serial numbers for years, with custom machines in the banks, to de-anonymize Irish freedom-fighters (oops, I mean terrorists). Anonymity is another area, like privacy, where changes from technology can make big social differences.
There is a massive difference between anonymous speech and anonymous transactions. Anonymous speech can create problems (defamation etc.) but in the main these are not problems the courts are particularly good at dealing with. In the UK the libel laws are not so much a redress for legitimate grievance than a way for a senior Tory to obtain a nice lump sum towards his pension if he should happen to be filmed handing over 5000 quid in a breifcase to a prostitute he'd never met. The "problems" encountered by the Church of Scientology demonstrate that the court process itself can be imeasurably more harmfull than any imagined grievance. Should society have laws to protect trades secrets? Probably , but not to protect the likes of the CoS. If the Internet makes such laws difficult to enforce then we should return to the original concerns that prompted society to create the laws in the first place and see if the Internet provides better was of achieving the same result. Anonymous transactions are a rather different matter. It is more difficult to argue for anonymity. The extreeme examples of Chaumian cash create considerable difficulties such as making a perfect conduit for ransom proceeds and the profits of drug trafficing. Simply ignoring these problems will result in the proponents of anonymity simply being ignored. The principle fear of the authorities appears to be terrorist rather than normal criminal activities. Terrorism is no longer limited to far off irredentist struggles that ex-patriates can harbour romantic thoughts about. The reality the the IRA is an organisation that murders children by placing a bomb in a rubbish bin outside a MacDonalds has been brought home to the suporters of Noraid through the bombings of the World Trade Center, Oaklahoma and Atlanta. If one lives in a country where there is little terrorism it is easy to imagine that people driven to extreeme actions are driven by a extreeme situation. If one is faced with the reality of terrorism one soon reaches the conclusion that its perpetrators are simply ordinary psychopaths. Having stated that terrorism is an important concern for the state it is necessary to ask whether it is necessary to restrict freedom to combat terrorism. In answering one must bear in mind that a central part of most terrorist strategies is to force the state to respond with disproportionate measures (here recent events in Chetchnya indicate that Trotsky was not widely read in the USSR). Absolutely anonymous cash may create problems, but what if it were possible to generate small quantities of "marked bills" within an otherwise anonymous system. If the circumstances under which the marked bills could be distributed were limited to a small set of tightly controlled circumstances the legitimate need of the government to oppose terrorism and organised crime could be met without imposing a Singapore style system with total monitoring. In effect what is taking place is a negotiation between two groups, the government and civil rights activists. If one side refuses to consider the needs of the other they will be marginalised. Absolutism in politics is usually a bad thing. Politics usually works through compromises. The art being to ensure that one compromises the inessential terms in order to defend the key items. In the present Presidential race the one policy area in which Clinton is potentially vulnerable is privacy. Its the one area which the Republicans could raise and claim it as their own (whether justifiable or not). The Clinton camp could not move from their current position without dropping Freeh overboard, since Freeh has run the FBI without any Ruby ridge or Waco style cockups on his watch I don't think that is likely to happen. If privacy is raised as a policy concern in this election it will reoccur in the next and both parties will have to justify their policies in terms of personal privacy as well as everything else. Just because the election is practically settled does not mean that the campaign will not affect what happens during the administration. Clinton clearly wants Gore to be his successor and is going to want to make it as easy as possible for him to win. Clinton is the kind of politician I can trust - give him an issue and I trust him to look at the opinion polls. If Dole makes any kind of headway in '96 with a privacy plank then Gore will have to have one in 2000. Phill
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On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Hallam-Baker wrote:
There is a massive difference between anonymous speech and anonymous transactions. Anonymous speech can create problems (defamation etc.) but in the main these are not problems the courts are particularly good at dealing with.
Perhaps, but defamation is an issue that can't be ignored either, especially if one tries to build systems based on reputation. Enzo
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In <Pine.WNT.3.94.960908100847.-490199B-100000@enzohome.ima.com>, on 09/08/96 at 10:14 AM, Enzo Michelangeli <enzo@ima.com> said:
On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Hallam-Baker wrote:
There is a massive difference between anonymous speech and anonymous transactions. Anonymous speech can create problems (defamation etc.) but in the main these are not problems the courts are particularly good at dealing with.
Perhaps, but defamation is an issue that can't be ignored either, especially if one tries to build systems based on reputation.
Actually it can. :) There are already checks and balances in dealing with defamation. Take the following example: I post a message stating that Phil Zimmerman is a @#$! and that PGP is full of holes. The immediate responce I would receive from the group would be some rather nasty flames, a couple of questions, most would ignore. Because Phil has a much greater reputation than I do such a blatant defamation would do my reputation much harm while doing his little or no harm. It may actually improve his reputation by the many follow up posting re-affirming his good reputation and his quality product. The only way I could get away with such a message would be to back it up with some strong proof and the support of others with equal or greater reputation as Phil. Now if I anonymously post the same message. The results would be the same as above only no one but the truly "net clueless" would pay any attention to the message. It would be seen as a "troll" and be dealt with accordingly. Once again no damage has been done to Phil's reputation. Now where things get intrusting is when the rolls are reversed. Say Phil posts a message that I am a @#$@%!!! and my product is full of holes and that I am realy a NSA stooge. Many at first would take Phil's word at face value because his reputation is much better than mine. It is only my fault that my reputation is not equal or greater than his. Because of this I now have two choices, I can stay and fight for the harts and minds of the group or I can pack up my toys and go home. Say I decide to fight. After much work, & many messages I prove that Phil's statements are untrue & manage to convert the group to my side. My reputation has now been greatly inhanced and Phil's reputation has suffered. In the current system if one repetitively post slander to a group his reputation will be distroyed beyond all repair. There is a genuine disincentive against slander in a system built on reputation. No additional "forces" are needed. The addition of libel laws would actually hurt such a system. The threat of a libel suite could be used to inhibit debate on a topic or questioning of ones reputation. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!! Merlin Beta Test Site - WarpServer SMP Test Site Author of PGPMR2 - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts Get Work Place Shell for Windows!! PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info ----------------------------------------------------------- MR/2 Tag->Windows: The Gates of hell.
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Enzo Michelangeli wrote:
On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Hallam-Baker wrote:
There is a massive difference between anonymous speech and anonymous transactions. Anonymous speech can create problems (defamation etc.) but in the main these are not problems the courts are particularly good at dealing with.
Perhaps, but defamation is an issue that can't be ignored either, especially if one tries to build systems based on reputation.
It _is_ an issue that can be ignored - if the "defamer" backs up his claims, then fine, the claims can be shown to be valid, otherwise ignore those claims. Simple. Gary -- "Of course the US Constitution isn't perfect; but it's a lot better than what we have now." -- Unknown. pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland <gary@systemics.com> Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06
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On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, Gary Howland wrote:
Enzo Michelangeli wrote:
Perhaps, but defamation is an issue that can't be ignored either, especially if one tries to build systems based on reputation.
It _is_ an issue that can be ignored - if the "defamer" backs up his claims, then fine, the claims can be shown to be valid, otherwise ignore those claims. Simple.
I and you may well choose to do so, but the vast majority of the human beings believe just anything that is repeated loud and long enough. Otherwise, nobody would hire PR and pay for advertisement, politicians wouln't be fedwith taxpayer's money, Bosnians would trade goods instead of gunshots, etc. I'm personally not interested in conjuring up the latest utopia for a minoritarian sect of illuminati: I need to live in the real world, and push for viable solutions that change it for better, now. Enzo
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I and you may well choose to do so, but the vast majority of the human beings believe just anything that is repeated loud and long enough. Otherwise, nobody would hire PR and pay for advertisement, politicians wouln't be fedwith taxpayer's money, Bosnians would trade goods instead of gunshots, etc. I'm personally not interested in conjuring up the latest utopia for a minoritarian sect of illuminati: I need to live in the real world, and push for viable solutions that change it for better, now.
The question is not whether defamation is a problem but whether the courts make the problem better or worse. I think that any analysis of the behaviour of the scientologists would indicate that the courts make the problem worse. Similarly the English libel laws have been used by a long line of crooks and swindlers to extort money. Robert Maxwell being an extreeme example. The thing about the Internet is that it is possible to make a reply. This does not help of course in the example cited, but I don't think that the Mutlu/Serdar flamebot could have been dealt with through the court system. (For those of you who don;t know, a poster calling himself first Hasan B Mutlu, then Serdar Argic used to make insulting responses to anyone who made a USEnet post about the middle east. Mutlu was in fact a perl script run by an agent of the Turkish intelligence services, the objective being to discredit all mention of the Turkish massacre of the Armenians through use of counter propaganda. Mutlu dissapeared from the net at the same time that the sysop of the system he was posting from was deported for overstaying his visa. Phill
participants (5)
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Enzo Michelangeli
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Gary Howland
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Hallam-Baker
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hallam@ai.mit.edu
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William H. Geiger III