---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 22:44:51 -0400 From: Michael Sims <jellicle@inch.com> To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu Subject: Re: CEI tells the Federal Trade Commission to be wary of regulat I've just read through this thing. What a load of crap. The libertarian bent shows through, assuming that businesses have a right to consumer information and denying that is sacrilege. I'll just do a quick red penning of the thing:

CEI is a non-profit, non-partisan free-market research and advocacy group.

Libertarians aren't a party?

The confusion surrounding the term privacy leads one to conclude that "privacy" is like a Rorschach ink blot - different people read different things into it. "Whenever an invasion of privacy is claimed, there are usually competing values at stake." In this sense, privacy is not a right, it is a preference.

Of course there are competing values at stake. Usually, it's your "right to make a buck" vs. my "right to be let alone". I don't think corporations have a "right to make a buck".

Much of what people want in the name of "privacy" is that which they could actually achieve through traditionally understood conceptions of property rights and freedom of contract. But when "privacy" itself is set forth as an amorphous, floating concept, it in fact threatens property rights and freedom of contract. It is this substitution of an ill-defined "privacy right" for well-defined rights that threatens the Internet.

In other words, if consumers have any say in the reselling of their names and information, it threatens business's "rights". Exactly what contract did I sign when I posted to alt.beavis.and.butthead and received ads about ab rollers and make-money-fast?

On the other hand, companies cannot impose an agenda on private individuals the way the government can. When they try to, there are civil and criminal laws there to stop them. Despite rhetoric about the "power" of large corporations, all marketers can really do is try to persuade people to buy their products. They do this through advertising.

Corporations good, government bad.

Why is data collection so important for the Internet?

People have repeatedly demonstrated that they are not willing to pay for content on the Internet. Advertising Age magazine recently reported that only 25% of people polled were willing to pay to subscribe to online publications. Many subscribers to content pages freely share their passwords with others. "If Web sites can't figure out how to halt the free-for-all, a promising revenue source for on-line businesses may be threatened."

Oh no! Business may lose a percentage of their bottom line! Scream! Run away! Sigh. I wasn't aware there was a constitutional right to make money in a certain fashion. There IS an [interpreted] constitutional right to privacy.

Therefore, in order to develop, web sites will increasingly depend upon advertising for support.

Quite frankly, there's a godawful amount of content out there now, being delivered for at a loss, or break even, or a slight profit. I fail to see the business "right" to turn the net into an advertising medium, which so compels this whole statement. Aren't cookies enough? geeez.

At the same time, advertisers are still very hesitant about advertising on the Internet. "Where are the marketers?" asked one Advertising Age editorial. The editor of Out magazine's web page, now defunct, was quoted as saying, "advertisers aren't clamoring to get on the Web - we have to beat them up to get on the Web" (emphasis in original). Anything which makes it harder for advertising to work will have direct effects on the quality and content of the Internet, a very serious harm to Internet users. In addition, it will likely raise the cost to consumers of using the Internet.

A flat-out lie. Advertising pays no costs of my using the net, and a very small percentage of the web sites I visit are ad-supported. What they mean to say is, "If you make targetted advertising harder, we'll have to rely on less-well-targetted advertising, and businesses may make less money off the net." So?

Is the issue "privacy," or is it really marketing?

Much of the rhetoric surrounding the privacy issue concerns the purported power of advertising. There is a decades-old strain of thought which declares that advertising is coercive and makes people buy what they do not want. This is untrue, as examples from the Edsel, to New Coke, even to Nissan (which has a great ad campaign but has seen no increase in auto sales) show. Unfortunately, many people do not fully recognize the very real benefits consumers derive from advertising.

Which corporations support this, uh, "think-tank" again? There's actually a variety of simple formulas relating how much advertising is required to make a movie a hit, for example. Publicize an incredibly lousy movie sufficiently, and it will turn a profit. For them to deny that advertising has any power over consumers (not people in this corporate-viewpoint paper; only consumers) is to deny reality.

Advertising's role in a market economy is essential, and essentially benign. Advertising lets consumers know about price and quality information. It alerts consumers to the existence of new and improved products. It even saves consumers time by helping them figure out what they do not want in advance of shopping (e.g. a new car's styling is unattractive, or it is too expensive). Curtailing advertising limits the availability of consumer information.

That's real funny. You're right, I'm being done a valuable service for my own good when I get spam email for ab rollers.

FTC Question 2.3: What are the risks, costs and benefits of collection, compilation, sale and use of personal consumer information in this context?

Despite plenty of speculation, there has been no demonstration of significant actual harm resulting from the commercial collection of personal data over the Internet. This is not to say that all data posted on the Internet are good. Quite the contrary. For example, the government has made it difficult, if not impossible, to live in America today without a social security number. Congress has mandated that all states use social security numbers as driver identification numbers. And Departments of Motor Vehicles have been rather cavalier about selling the data collected, including social security numbers. That is why the outcry against Lexis-Nexis, which created a database of publicly available government information, was misplaced.

Marc Rotenberg already got this one, so I'll forbear. Not only do they have the facts wrong, they turn it into an example of "business good, government bad" when it's really an example of "business seeking profit runs up against consumers who've had enough".

The allocation of costs and benefits deriving from data collection depends upon whom you ask.

Yeah, and if you ask a pro-business think-tank, their lies will be slanted this way.....

Again, privacy is a preference, not a universal right.

Unless you count that whole Bill of Rights thing, of course. They must be referring to other countries here.

While some may not like the very idea that data are being collected about their consumption behavior, others may not care at all. Indeed, some consumers may not mind how much information about them is available, if it means they will receive only ads targeted to their particular interests.

Like ab rollers.

"Consumers don't mind advertising and pay attention to it, as long as it gives them something of value."

Some people may not mind be gunned down on the street. Eliminate the penalties for murder because some people might like it.

There is a tension between the notion that all interactions on the Internet ought to be private, and the fact that people go on to the Internet to communicate in public.

I go out on the street to communicate in public too, but that doesn't give you the right to phone me 20 times a day selling ab rollers.

The reality is that going on to the Internet is like walking on a public street, with each Web page like a private store.

Sounds good to me. Does my walking down the street give blanket permission for anyone who sees me to call me up and pitch ab rollers? No? Does my posting to Usenet give blanket permission for anyone who egreps the news disk to mail me and pitch ab rollers?

Each Web page has the right to set up its own conditions for entry. Such policies could range from a free-for-all data collection spree, to very strict information collection limitations.

Oh, they could. But without any governmental regulation, I think you know which end of the spectrum it will settle at. Wired's site sends out what, 12 or 15 different cookies? Those slow-loading sites in the future won't be because of the content, it will be because of the tracking they're doing.

It is important to note that since advertising depends upon customer profile information,

No, not really. "...is made more efficient by...", sure, but depends? No.

web pages which take extra steps to protect privacy might be relatively more expensive, and may have to charge a premium. If one individual prefers more privacy than another, this is a reasonable situation.

Pay to avoid ads!

It behooves Web pages to clearly define the terms of entry. As for chat rooms and newsgroups, their entire purpose is for people to communicate with each other. Therefore, people should not be surprised when third parties collect information which they have already placed in the public realm.

Oh, surprised, no. Annoyed when their "collections" endanger the usability of my email, and cost me substantial time, yes.

There are some very serious problems with the notion that consumers somehow "own" information about themselves which they have already released publicly, or through a contract with a company.

Consumers have no rights. Businesses have rights. Remember this.

Away from the virtual world, people have repeatedly shown willingness to give up their "valuable" personal data in return for such things as rebates or coupons.

Where's my coupon for posting to Usenet?

From product reply questionnaires to supermarket shopper clubs, people give out information all the time, often ^^^^^^

Substitute "idiots". I never fill out any of that crap.

automatically. Even when it comes to the sale of magazine subscriber lists, many people know about it and often take advantage of deals offered by other magazines and by marketers of certain products.

Sure, buddy. Like my subscription to Scientific American, which has resulted in my being sent direct mail for tons of shit designed to appeal to 65-year-old scientists.

Some say that consumers ought to be reimbursed for this sale of names. But value is subjective, and, in a market economy, a good offered for sale is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. Companies pay for the names because it saves them the time and expense that it would take to collect the publicly available information themselves. Arbitrarily assigning a price to names, rather than having it settled by negotiation through the market, assumes that everyone agrees upon the value of a name. As discussed above, this is not so. Artificially raising the price of a good (i.e. a name) through regulation would surely decrease demand for it. That outcome might please many privacy advocates, but it would hurt consumers in unseen ways, by limiting the availability and circulation of consumer information.

Translation: it would dent advertising costs and put them on the advertiser instead of the receiver of junk ads. Consumer bad, business good: we don't like this idea. We like the costs being on the consumer.

If you release information about yourself, then that information becomes part of the public realm. For example, suppose you place an engagement announcement in a local newspaper. You do not "own" that information. That is, other parties can pick it up and use it for, say, creating mailing lists of newlyweds or brides-to-be. "The power to control information about you is the power to control the speech of others."

Nice platitude. I would think libertarian property rights would hold sway here, but I guess they're conflicting with "business good".

Even when it comes to implicit contracts - the selling of magazine lists, for example - there is no reason why it is incumbent upon the magazine seller to obtain an affirmation from every subscriber before selling their names. Rather, sensitive consumers ought to pay attention to the fine print of their contracts.

There's no part of the Sci Am subscription form which says "by subscribing, we will sell your name around the world to junk mailers." Believe me, I've looked.

They can decline to contract in the first place, or establish a set of acceptable conditions, such as requesting that their names be removed from mailing lists.

A farce. You and I know that business will require disclosure of personal info as a prerequisite for doing business if it lies within their scope. I think Radio Shack was a particularly egregious example of this, requesting names, addresses and phone numbers even for cash purposes. I've told them to fuck off on more than one occasion. Imagine if your phone number was scribed on the outside of your body, as your email address is on this posting...

Keeping names off of lists is a preference and not a right.

Businesses have rights! Consumers have none.

Consumers who do not like this practice have no right to impose their preferences on everyone.

Businesses have rights! Consumers have none.

What goes for the real world should apply to the virtual world.

Okay, ASK me for my info, just like you have to in the real world. Sounds fair to me.

The risks of this data collection by companies are overstated.

I've seen more than one account disabled by excess junk email. Think it's a pain now? Just wait.

The one exception is when collected information falls into the hands of the government. For example, an ice-cream shop culled names of eighteen-year-olds from the store's birthday club and sold the list to the selective service. For these customers, going into an ice-cream shop mean induction in the army.

Government bad, business good.

The costs and benefits of data collection are different for every consumer. Regulation would only institutionalize a set of preferences, rather than uphold rights. It might be that companies ought to be more explicit about their information collection policies. However, those companies which do take extra steps in this regard frequently tout it. In short, those consumers most concerned about data collection already have one way of satisfying that preference, without resorting to government intervention.

Which way was that? Choosing only marketers who say they won't resell information? What if they lie?

FTC Question 2.16: How widespread is the practice of sending unsolicited e-mail? Are privacy or other consumer interests implicated by this practice? What are the sources of e-mail addresses used for this purpose?

Unsolicited e-mail is very similar to junk mail in the context of "privacy." Many people find it annoying, especially since junk e-mail shifts the cost from the sender to the recipient, who pays in time and money. However, enough people like it and take advantage of it that the practice continues.

No, the cost of sending the advertisement in the first place is low enough that the practice continues. Typical response to a junk emailing is about 20% of receivers will reply with hate, the majority will ignore it, and fewer than .1% will respond favorably. This CEI statement is grossly misinformed or simply lying.

E-mail marketers often harvest names through data mining - collecting e-mail addresses from newsgroup posts and chat rooms. It is clear that many consumers do not like this, but it is not clear why this practice should be made illegal, as opposed to being simply irritating.

It's an irritation that government has the power to stop; and Nothing short of government action will stop it; and Government action will not cause any collateral damage. Seems like a perfect case for government action to me.

As previously noted, people who venture out into those chat rooms and newsgroups are going out into public. E-mail put out into these areas is public property,

Au contraire. Saying such a thing does not make it so. Public property? No.

much as an engagement announcement would be. Therefore, someone collecting lists of names and sending out junk e-mails is acting perfectly legitimately. There is no way for a data collector (or even another participant) to know in advance who would like to hear about something or not.

It's safe to assume the majority do not. That's true with 100% certainty. Yet this paper attempts to say the consumer is being done a service.

The combination of what is wanted and what is unwanted is different for everyone.

I don't want anything that is completely unsolicited trying to sell me stuff. This is true for 99% of the human race.

Many people object to the costs of paying for unwanted e-mail (e.g. charges per e-mail received, line charges incurred while using the e-mail function). That is perfectly understandable. But if you do not wish to be put on a list, the responsibility is yours to avoid it.

It's not companies' responsibility to not call you at 3AM - it's your responsiblity to not have the phone on the hook!

Fortunately, there are already options available. Most of the major Internet providers - AOL, Prodigy, CompuServe - already have banned junk mailings. This provision of what some see as a valuable service is perfectly legitimate as well. In addition, AOL also permits people who participate in chat rooms to use up to five false names. Along with the ease of finding anonymizers to surf the Web, "going incognito" has never been so easy to do.

They know as well as anyone that the "default" is to reveal plenty of information, and few users will stray from that. They also know that neither AOL nor Prodigy nor Compuserve have "banned" junk emailings. They are lying, yet again. What the online services have done is take action against a certain junk emailer who was reducing the usefulness of their email systems with the volume of junk mail inflicted.

As the Washington Post aptly noted, "Psychologically, the more interesting question is why folks who long since gave up the attempt to stop mass telemarketing or ordinary delivered-to-the-door junk mail find it so much more immediately threatening to receive mail that can be deleted at the touch of a button."

Mass telemarketing is far from illegal. It is regulated to avoid the extreme abuses which occur with 100% certainty when businesses see a chance to make money. As should junk emailing.

FTC Question 2.18: What costs does unsolicited commercial e-mail impose on consumers or others? Are there available means of avoiding or limiting such costs? If so, what are they?

The wording of the question suggests that the FTC believes that the primary cost of unsolicited e-mail is "privacy."

Translation: we would like to avoid a discussion of the very real dollar costs imposed upon unsuspecting email recipients. The wording of the question suggests no such thing, but that's what we'd like to talk about.

Once again, "privacy" is a preference.

Forgot that Fourth Amendment again, eh?

Therefore, junk e-mail is a cost only to those who personally object to data collection. It might be useful to look at this situation in a different way.

Unless you count such mundanities as time and dollars as "costs". Funny how these pro-business types are great at accounting usually, but forget all that when it comes to making these statements.

In addition, clamping down on data collection will hurt smaller companies and non-profits, who might find this data collection useful in finding new customers or members. Well-known non-profits, for example, receive a great deal of publicity and exposure in the general media; how many other, smaller groups would like to find people interested in their work via the Internet?

Wave the non-profit flag to disguise the HUGE profit-seeking behemoth out there. Great. As if I'd ever help aa non-profit who spammed me.

One of the biggest objections to data collection is its awesome speed. But this is not a sufficient basis for regulation; it is an extension of objections to data collection in general.

Actually, it is. The abuses become significantly greater and therefore more of a concern to government.

Use of data collection technology makes information cheaper and more available to a variety of groups, from non-profits to associations dedicated to one or another hobbies or interests.

As if that would account for .00000001% of the use.

As Esther Dyson put it, "The goal is a market in privacy practices. That will result in constantly improving standards rather than rigid ones set by law, and in decentralized, speedy enforcement" (emphasis in original).

You know how this "market" will go? Businesses willget together, say "Hey, there's no point fighting over this, let's just standardize on full consumer disclosure. It will help all of us." and that will be it, no more market. -- Michael Sims