Re: TWA 800 - Serious thread.
At 03:30 PM 9/9/96 -0700, Dale Thorn wrote:
If govt. protects its "sources and methods", however nefarious, to the extent that the public is never asked to assent to these methods (even though a few of us know about them anyway), then the public doesn't have to become overtly cynical about what's going on.
But the public *is* asked to assent to those methods - your chance to vote on them is known colloquially as "jury duty". -- Greg Broiles |"Post-rotational nystagmus was the subject of gbroiles@netbox.com |an in-court demonstration by the People http://www.io.com/~gbroiles |wherein Sgt Page was spun around by Sgt |Studdard." People v. Quinn 580 NYS2d 818,825.
Greg Broiles wrote:
At 03:30 PM 9/9/96 -0700, Dale Thorn wrote:
If govt. protects its "sources and methods", however nefarious, to the extent that the public is never asked to assent to these methods (even though a few of us know about them anyway), then the public doesn't have to become overtly cynical about what's going on.
But the public *is* asked to assent to those methods - your chance to vote on them is known colloquially as "jury duty".
Ah, but isn't "jury selection" the process of selecting those that don't know they are judging the law as well as the case? Gary -- "Of course the US Constitution isn't perfect; but it's a lot better than what we have now." -- Unknown. pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland <gary@systemics.com> Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06
On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Gary Howland wrote:
But the public *is* asked to assent to those methods - your chance to vote on them is known colloquially as "jury duty".
But judges have said that Jury Nullification is not acceptable legal practice.
Ah, but isn't "jury selection" the process of selecting those that don't know they are judging the law as well as the case?
You forgot something else. Jury Selection also involves the removal from the jury any individual who might have some knowledge about anything which might be relevent to the case. So the only people on juries are those who are unemployed, on uneducated or usually both. That they are easilly manipulated is a further virtue, from the POV of the Injustice system the US has. xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com The one who does nothing can win over the one who rushes around to all the things. The one who is gentle can win over the one who is strong.
On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, jonathon wrote:
On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Gary Howland wrote:
But the public *is* asked to assent to those methods - your chance to vote on them is known colloquially as "jury duty".
But judges have said that Jury Nullification is not acceptable legal practice.
And other judges have said the opposite. EBD ...
Brian Davis wrote:
On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, jonathon wrote: On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Gary Howland wrote: But the public *is* asked to assent to those methods - your chance to vote on them is known colloquially as "jury duty".
But judges have said that Jury Nullification is not acceptable legal practice.
And other judges have said the opposite. EBD
This seems similar to the Declaration-of-Independence argument about the "right of the people to overthrow the govt.", etc. You can't expect the Constitution (a doctrine of law) to provide details on extra-legal activities such as violent overthrow of the govt., nor can you expect judges to explain in court how to ignore the Law. And if all else fails, you can try picketing... A well-written company charter (as an example) would contain provisions for exceptions to the charter, not to abrogate or undermine the charter, but just as a kind of escape valve. One would note the exception(s) for historical purposes, and for purposes of future litigation, and so on. I can't help but wonder if the U.S. Constitution would have been better for something similar to this, instead of pasting on Amendments for every little thing.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <32367F80.41C67EA6@systemics.com>, on 09/11/96 at 10:59 AM, Gary Howland <gary@systemics.com> said:
Greg Broiles wrote:
At 03:30 PM 9/9/96 -0700, Dale Thorn wrote:
If govt. protects its "sources and methods", however nefarious, to the extent that the public is never asked to assent to these methods (even though a few of us know about them anyway), then the public doesn't have to become overtly cynical about what's going on.
But the public *is* asked to assent to those methods - your chance to vote on them is known colloquially as "jury duty".
Ah, but isn't "jury selection" the process of selecting those that don't know they are judging the law as well as the case?
The form of Government that our Founding Fathers created here in the US was based on the principle that the citizens were educated, informed, God fearing people with solid moral principles. We no longer have such a society if we ever did. Our citizens are for the most part uneducated, ill-informed, with the moral fiber that back in 1776 would have found the whole lot of them in stocks in the town square. The two major cause of this have been public education & TV. Now before I get flamed here let me explain my position. :) Over the past 40-50 yrs. public education has been going down hill. To receive the education that was once received from 12 yrs of school now requires 16 yrs. We are graduating greater and greater numbers of students that do not have the basic skills to survive in the workplace. There is little or no instruction on government, law, or the Constitution in school. The majority of citizens are ignorant of the law, of the Constitution (both State & Federal), of their local government. Incase you doubt this go out and ask some of your fellow citizens who is on their town counsel, county boards, state representatives. Ask them how local judges are selected. Who are their local judges and what are their positions on key political issues. Now on moral fiber & God fearing: Every society has recognize that there were some basic rules it's citizens had to live by inorder for them to survive. Now there can be some debate over individual rules or how they should be inforced but all societies have agreed that there were rules that the group as a whole had to live by. The three major ones: Don't Kill Don't Steal Don't Lie A majority of our current laws come from these 3 basic principles. Unfortunately our children are not being taught this. They are not being taught this by their parents, they are not being taught this by the schools, and the majority of airtime on TV is teaching them just the opposite. - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!! Merlin Beta Test Site - Warpserver SMP Test Site Author of PGPMR2 - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts Get Work Place Shell for Windows!! PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info - ----------------------------------------------------------- MR/2 Tag->Get OS/2 - the best Windows tip around! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMjbcBY9Co1n+aLhhAQGloAP/beWoYIMGwzbyerMdgobciQZW6o/zAnpI dYUbWNY8pv40/YWWa4I0yHv31KVFySBAJZYb/WUmISQzwfXij4I+9GSmgYW2iri8 iIYl2RvCJsyBKz77Dgz1vKtAFOFOBNajcL9UqKKDOkwBtDu0PlHIOIoULn/ny8e3 cXIwTEt/Tbc= =81z7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Greg Broiles wrote:
At 03:30 PM 9/9/96 -0700, Dale Thorn wrote: If govt. protects its "sources and methods", however nefarious, to the extent that the public is never asked to assent to these methods (even though a few of us know about them anyway), then the public doesn't have to become overtly cynical about what's going on.
But the public *is* asked to assent to those methods - your chance to vote on them is known colloquially as "jury duty". Greg Broiles |"Post-rotational nystagmus was the subject of gbroiles@netbox.com |an in-court demonstration by the People http://www.io.com/~gbroiles |wherein Sgt Page was spun around by Sgt |Studdard." People v. Quinn 580 NYS2d 818,825.
I missed a lot of this being off-line for a few days. The jury discussion is a good one, but nowadays we have sequestering or no, cameras in the court or no cameras, new gag rules all the time, including books being published or even planning to be published, the "no profit" rules for convictees (or those about to be convicted), and don't forget the (gasp!) influential organs such as National Enquirer who "digitally enhance" certain photos such as Nicole Simpson, Liza Minelli, etc. If there's a chance of ever cleaning up the justice system, would it mean a prosecution of those who promoted the Incubator Baby scam for the Gulf War, for example?
participants (6)
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Brian Davis -
Dale Thorn -
Gary Howland -
Greg Broiles -
jonathon -
William H. Geiger III