Re: Private and Public
"Perry E. Metzger" <pmetzger@lehman.com> said:
However, this entire topic belongs on places like talk.politics.misc, not cypherpunks. I would suggest that it be conducted elsewhere.
I very strongly disagree. The social, political, and economic impact of cryptographic techniques is at least as important as the technology itself. Pure algorithms can be discussed in sci.crypt, after all. Cypherpunks do not have a common agenda, but we do share an interest in how the future world will be shaped by cryptographic technology.
Personally, I don't believe there is such a thing as a social contract -- I never signed anything, and from what I can tell the terms on the social contract are ones I would never have accepted.
Incorrect. You have complete freedom as to your citizenship. Any time that you choose, you are free to renounce your citizenship, and thereby reject the contract that citizenship gives you. Naturalized citizens of a country/government *very* explicitly enter into the contract; those of you born into citizenship tend to not to think about the subject very deeply, but basically you are simply being granted the privilege of skipping the formalisms, on the assumption that you either accept the contract, or will explicitly opt out. If you continue to accept the freely-granted citizenship you were born into, then you are also accepting the entire contract, like it or not. If you truly reject the contract that U.S. citizenship obligates you to, with all its positive and negative points, then go ahead and give it up. Put your money where your mouth is. Otherwise, accept that citizenship is a two-way street, and work within that system to change it to your tastes, rather than denying that the contract even exists.
I would be happy to purchase what the goverment give me on the open market -- I see no need for government to be involved in mail delivery or garbage collection or schools or any of the other things it runs -- from what I can tell all it touches turns to crap.
I completely agree. But this is quite a different subject. Doug -- Doug Merritt doug@netcom.com Professional Wild-eyed Visionary Member, Crusaders for a Better Tomorrow Unicode Novis Cypherpunks Gutenberg Wavelets Conlang Logli Alife HC_III Computational linguistics Fundamental physics Cogsci SF GA VR CASE TLAs
Since Mr. Merritt has insisted, I will take a foray into this issue. I would suggest, however, that this is not the forum for this discussion. Doug Merritt says:
Incorrect. You have complete freedom as to your citizenship. Any time that you choose, you are free to renounce your citizenship, and thereby reject the contract that citizenship gives you.
Mr. Merritt, this discussion is much like that of a Catholic peasant in 1500 trying to understand an atheist, with me in the role of the atheist. I don't believe that government has any legitimacy. Imagine an armed gang comes up to you and says "We are your government. You are a citizen of our government. We will now take half of all your money and protect you with it." How is this in any fundamental sense different from what the goverment does? They have a piece of paper called a "constitution". Fine. I can write a similar pretty piece of paper called a "constitution" if I want. They have a lot of nice marble buildings. I could buy some nice marble buildings. They have periodic "elections" in which they allow an arbitrary set of people they have selected to "vote". I could similarly hold periodic "elections". They say they are the legitimate rulers of the U.S. -- I could similarly simply claim to be the legitimate ruler of the U.S. Government controls because of a large collective delusion. To the peasant in 13th century Italy, disobeying a priest would be unthinkable -- he was delivering the word of God, after all. The notion that God does not exist didn't even occur to him. The power of the Catholic Church of the day was awesome because most people held the irrational belief system that said the Church spoke the word of a mythical "God". A peasant of that day could not have conceived of the notion that a man could live his life without any religion or a church to belong to. Similarly, the bulk of the people in our country believe in the legitimacy of the Government, largely because they believe it is somehow a legitimate entity that they require. People believe that they need the government the way that 13th century peasants believed that they needed God. Well, millions of people now understand that they can live happy comfortable lives without a church, and someday most people will understand that they can lead happy comfortable lives without the government. You claim that I've entered into a "social contract". I have never seen such a contract. I have no idea what it might say. You claim that I am free to renounce my citizenship -- but non-citizens resident in this country are also apparently members of this mythical "contract" because they too are forced to pay tribute to this gang calling itself the government. You claim that my staying in the land in which I was born is implicit acceptance of this "contract", but in what way is this different from a mafiosi claiming that because I continue to live in the neighborhood which he controls I must pay him protection money?
If you continue to accept the freely-granted citizenship you were born into, then you are also accepting the entire contract, like it or not.
As for your quaint theory that there is in fact a social contract, I suggest reading Lysander Spooner's "No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority", which you can FTP from think.com in the libernet directory tree. Spooner was a 19th century anarchist and legal scholar. Among his other accomplishments was demonstrating that the U.S. Postal monopoly was unnecessary by starting the American Letter Mail Company, which nearly drove the U.S. Postal Service out of any use by anyone before his company was banned by the Private Express Acts which were specifically targetted at him. Spooner had many other fascinating adventures, as an abolitionist and as a promoter of private monetary systems -- which were also banned, incidently. Perry
participants (2)
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doug@netcom.com -
Perry E. Metzger