At 10:20 AM -0800 12/21/96, Dale Thorn wrote:

Ya' know, guys, the world is half women, even though they're not on the c-punks list. Get in touch with them. They're fun people.

Ah, it's been a while since we had the "why aren't more women on the list?" discussion. Frankly, women are of course welcome. If the list interests them, they are welcome to subscribe. As it has always been. That so few women are subscribers, or remain subscribers, or attend Cypherpunks physical meetings....well, that's a larger issue involving familiar issues: - why are libertarian events so dominated by males? (in attendance, for example) - why do political extremist parties (Libertarian, Aryan Nations, JDL, KKK, Wobblies, etc.) tend to be more attractive to men in general? (While women are now well-integrated into the Democratic Party, and increasingly into the Republican Party, they are severely underrepresented in the various extremist and fringe parties noted above.) - why do men get a charge out of the thought of "seeing the walls come crashing down" as crypto methods undermine taxation, control of citizens, etc., while most women seem _disturbed_ by the implications? (I've explained crypto anarchy to many men and women over the past 6-8 years. I've seen the guy's get agitated, or bothered, but usually _interested_. I've seen eyes light up as they understand the likely implications of untraceable payments, anonymous communications, avoidance of Big Brother, etc. But with almost all women who've been exposed to this stuff, the reaction is negative, and one of disinterest. "Why would anyone want anarchy?" is a common question. Sociologists and psychologists could perhaps better explain why this is not a surprising reaction. I think it's why we seem to have at most a couple of active women subscribers at any given moment.) So, Dale, feel free to recruit more women to this and other lists. But don't presume from the traffic you see here--or from comments about the utter stupidity of little Jessica Dubroff, her pilot, her parents, and the complicitous news media--that we need a lecture on getting in touch with women. --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

Attila T. Hun wrote:

::>From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> ::>I spent part of my growing up years in Leroy West Virginia, pop. :about 15, ::>give or take. I know about hillbillies, and I know about guns. ::>If you had the impression I am a whiner, or that that defines me as a ::>person, you're about as clueful as the other old farts who attack people ::>they don't know anything about.

::Name one thing Dale has not experienced.

Amazing, isn't it? Or maybe I shoulda said "ain't". Ja' ever see the movie Joe Versus The Volcano? The perfect movie, IMO, although c-punks might not like that sort of thing. Anyway, the girl is telling Tom Hanks on the boat "My dad says most people go around all day in a fog (quote approximate), but the ones who are awake are in a constant state of amazement". Stick around. When you get off of the roller coaster, it's all over.

At 7:55 PM -0800 12/20/96, Dale Thorn wrote:

Attila T. Hun wrote: [snippo]

...

::Name one thing Dale has not experienced.

P.S.: I haven't jumped out of a plane, or flown one yet, but I do have a picture of Jessica Dubroff on the wall over my desk.

My stock broker worked with her pilot, who worked in the same brokerage office in Palo Alto. And, interestingly, the Cypherpunks had a big beach party between Pescadero (where Dubroff lived) and Half Moon Bay (where she flew out of) just a couple of days prior to her departure. (This was the beach party put together by Doug Barnes, last spring.) Her dingbat newage mother claimed that "Jessica is happier now." Yeah, what was left of her in the wreckage is happier now, rotting in a grave somewhere north of me. Dale probably has a picture of her above his desk to remind him of why he supports the "license to breed" proposal. (Not an altogether surprising sentiment, but one has to wonder just why Dale would be on a list such as this one, given his politics.) --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

...

(Not an altogether surprising sentiment, but one has to wonder just why Dale would be on a list such as this one, given his politics.)

[snip] A list such as this? I hung out with the radicals at Kent State in 1970, hobnobbed with KKK guys in S.E. Tennessee, spent time with the ultra- liberal crowd in the west L.A. area, and associated with Liberty Lobby (Carto, IHR) people for a while as well. You might be surprised at my politics, but then again, what is my politics? You can select/accumulate a point of view, but I'll wager that you can get a better understanding of people of all stripes if you spend time with them, rather than reading about them. Ideas are important, they're great to have and believe in, but don't let ideas lead you into supporting the great massacre machine of current-day politics. It's a fool's bet. Uncle Miltie said it best at the end of a 90-minute comedy special on PBS: "What's it all about? Life." (followed by an extremely funny quip about an uncle doing life in Sing-Sing). God bless Uncle Miltie.

Timothy C. May wrote:

At 10:20 AM -0800 12/21/96, Dale Thorn wrote:

...

Ya' know, guys, the world is half women, even though they're not on the c-punks list. Get in touch with them. They're fun people. Ah, it's been a while since we had the "why aren't more women on the list?" discussion. Frankly, women are of course welcome. If the list interests them, they are welcome to subscribe. As it has always been. So, Dale, feel free to recruit more women to this and other lists. But don't presume from the traffic you see here--or from comments about the utter stupidity of little Jessica Dubroff, her pilot, her parents, and the complicitous news media--that we need a lecture on getting in touch with women.

All of this is valid (for argument's sake) except "the stupidity of little Jessica". She was doing well for a 7-year-old, and I was quite proud of her. The morons who were flying that plane near weight capacity at lower altitudes should have been shot for that alone, never mind trying that at the altitude where they "bought the farm". What happened to Jessica because of the selfish, greedy adults who were involved actually gives weight to the parental licensing plan, yes? (Ouch)