Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:

Vulis, grow up.

============================================================================= + ^ + | Ray Arachelian |FL| KAOS KERAUNOS KYBERNETOS |==/|\== \|/ |sunder@brainlink.com|UL|__Nothing_is_true,_all_is_permitted!_|=/\|/\= <--+-->| ------------------ |CG|What part of 'Congress shall make no |=\/|\/= /|\ | "A toast to Odin, |KA| law abridging the freedom of speech'|==\|/== + v + |God of screwdrivers"|AK| do you not understand? |======= ===================http://www.brainlink.COM/~sunder/========================= If the Macintosh is a woman... Then Windows is a Transvestite! ActiveX! ActiveX! Format Hard drive? Just say yes!

My friend and colleague, Dr. Serdar Argic, has cited the following sources in reference to Ray Arachelian's criminal dandruff-covered grandparents: _The Jewish Times_ June 21, 1990 _An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in 1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound._ A. Lalayan, _Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East)_ No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936. -One of the architects of the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_ _I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones, as I did. I gathered all of the women, men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth._ Leonard Ramsden Hartill, _Men Are Like That_ The Bobbs-Merrill Company, Indianapolis (1926). _Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_ _Foreword:_ _For example, we were camped one night in a half-ruined Tartar mosque, the most habitable building of a destroyed village, near the border of Persia and Russian Armenia. During the course of evening I asked Ohanus if he could tell me anything of the history of the village and the cause of its destruction. In his matter of fact way he replied, Yes, I assisted in its sack and destruction, and witnessed the slaying of those whose bones you saw to-day scattered among its ruins._ p. 218 (first and second paragraphs) _We Armenians did not spare the Muslims. If persisted in, the slaughtering of Tartars, the looting, and the rape and massacre of the helpless become commonplace actions expected and accepted as a matter of course. I have been on the scenes of massacres where the dead lay on the ground, in numbers, like the fallen leaves in a forest. Muslims had been as helpless and as defenseless as sheep. They had not died as soldiers die in the heat of battle, fired with ardor and courage, with weapons in their hands, and exchanging blow for blow. They had died as the helpless must, with their hearts and brains bursting with horror worse than death itself._ Leonard Ramsden Hartill, _Men Are Like That_ The Bobbs-Merrill Company, Indianapolis (1926). _Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_ p. 15 (second paragraph) _The Tartars [Muslims] were, for the most part, poor. Some of them lived in villages and cultivated small farms; many of them continued in the way of life of their nomadic forefathers. They drove their flocks and herds from valley to valley, from plain to mountain, and from mountain to plain, following the pasturage as it changed with the seasons. They ranged from the salt desert shores of the Caspian Sea far into the mighty Caucasus Mountains. Even the village Tartars are a primitive people, only semicivilized. I can see now that we Armenians frankly despised the Tartars, and, while holding a disproportionate share of the wealth of the country, regarded and treated them as inferiors._ p. 20 (second paragraph) _Our men armed themselves, gathered together and advanced on the Tartar section of the village. There were no lights in the houses and the doors were barred, for the Tartars suspected what as to happen and were in great fear. Our men hammered on the doors, but got no response; whereupon they smashed in the doors and began a carnage that continued until the last Tartar was slain. Throughout the hideous night, I cowered at home in terror, unable to shut my ears to the piercing screams of the helpless victims and the loud shouts of our men. By morning the work was finished._ Leonard Ramsden Hartill, _Men Are Like That_ The Bobbs-Merrill Company, Indianapolis (1926). _Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_ p. 109 (second paragraph). _The method of execution was for an Armenian government 'mauserist' to walk up behind the condemned Muslim in his home or on the street, place a pistol to the back of his head and blow out his brains. This simple way of getting rid of those who were undesirable in the view of the Armenian government and soon became a common way of paying debts._ p. 202 (first and second paragraphs) _We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the scattered bones of the dead._ Leonard Ramsden Hartill, _Men Are Like That_ The Bobbs-Merrill Company, Indianapolis. _Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_ p. 203 (second paragraph) _One evening I passed through what had been a Tartar village. Among the ruins a fire was burning. I went to the fire and saw seated about it a group of soldiers. Among them were two Tartar girls, mere children. The girls were crouched on the ground, crying softly with suppressed sobs. Lying scattered over the ground were broken household utensils and other furnishings of Tartar peasant homes. There were also bodies of the Muslim dead._ p. 204 (first paragraph) _I was soon asleep. In the night I was awakened by the persistent crying of a child. I arose and went to investigate. A full moon enabled me to make my way about and revealed to me all the wreck and litter of the tragedy that had been enacted. Guided by the child's crying, I entered the yard of a house, which I judged from its appearance must have been the home of a Muslim family. There in a corner of the yard I found a women dead. Her throat had been cut. Lying on her breast was a small child, a girl about a year old._ _San Francisco Chronicle_ (December 11, 1983) _We have first hand information and evidence of Armenian atrocities against our people (Jews). Members of our family witnessed the murder of 148 members of our family near Erzurum, Turkey, by Armenian neighbors, bent on destroying anything and anybody remotely Jewish and/or Muslim...Armenians were in league with Hitler in the last war, on his premise to grant themselves government if, in return, the Armenians would help exterminate Jews. Armenians were also hearty proponents of the anti-Semitic acts in league with the Russian Communists._ Signed Elihu Ben Levi, Vacaville, California. "U.S. Library of Congress" _Bristol Papers_ - General Correspondence Container #34. _While the Dashnaks [x-Russian Armenian Government] were in power they did everything in the world to keep the pot boiling by attacking Kurds, Turks and Tartars; by committing outrages against the Moslems; by massacring the Moslems; and robbing and destroying their homes. During the last two years the Armenians in Russian Caucasus have shown no ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to govern or handle other races under their power._ _Bristol Papers_, General Correspondence: Container #32: Bristol to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920. _I have it from absolute first-hand information that the Armenians in the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Muslim) villages that are utterly defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder the inhabitants, pillage the village and often burn the village._ F. Kazemzadeh, _The Struggle for Transcaucasia_ (New York, 1951), p. 69. _This three-day massacre by Armenians is recorded in history as the 'March Events' and thousands of Muslims, old people, women and children lost their lives._ W. E. D. Allen and Paul Muratoff, _Caucasian Battlefields_ Cambridge University Press, 1953, p. 481. _As the Armenians found support among the Reds (who regarded the Tartars as a counter-revolutionary elements) the fighting soon became a massacre of the Tartar population._ G. Bronsart, _Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung_ July 24, 1921 _Since all the Moslems capable of bearing arms were in the Muslim Army, it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by the Armenians against defenseless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the Russians, but were attacking the Moslem folk in the region as well._ John Dewey, _The Turkish Tragedy_ The New Republic, Volume 40, November 12, 1928, pp. 268-269. _Armenians boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at least a hundred Muslim villages and exterminated their population._ G. Hamelin, _Les Armees Francaises au Levant_ February 2, 1919, Vol. 1, p. 122. _Armenians burned and destroyed many Muslim villages in their advance and practically all Muslim villages in their retreat from Marash._ Prof F. Hertas, _Van Muslim Holocaust Museum: Muslim and Western Documents on the Genocide Committed by the Armenians Against the Muslims_ 1984. p. 121. _In his speech given at the Sivas Congress, Mustafa Kemal once again drew a picture of the country under occupation: In the East, the Armenians are making preparations for advancing to the River Halys (Kizilirmak), and have already started a policy of massacring the Moslem population._ p. 122. _The situation of the southern provinces of Turkey after the signing of the Mudros Armistice is described by Ataturk in his speech: The Armenians in the south, armed by foreign troops and encouraged by the protection they enjoyed, molested the Mohammedans of their district. They pursued a relentless policy of murder and extinction everywhere. The Armenians had completely destroyed an old Mohammedan town like Maras by their artillery and machine-gun fire. They killed thousands of innocent and defenceless Muslim women and children. The Armenians were the instigators of the atrocities, which were unique in history. Threatened by the bayonets of the Armenians, who were armed to the teeth, the Mohammedans in the Vilayet of Adana were at that time in danger of being annihilated. While this policy of oppression and annihilation was carried on against the Mohammedans by the Armenians..._ Basar, H. K. (ed.); _Muslim and Russian Documents on the Genocide Committed by the Armenians Against the Muslims_ 1981. p. 22. _The atrocities and massacres which have been committed for a long time against the Muslim population within the Armenian Republic have been confirmed with very accurate information, and the observations made by Rawlinson, the British representative in Erzurum, have confirmed that these atrocities are being committed by the Armenians. The United States delegation of General Harbord has seen the thousands of refugees who came to take refuge with Kazim Karabekir's soldiers, hungry and miserable, their children and wives, their properties destroyed, and the delegation was a witness to the cruelties. Many Muslim villages have been destroyed by the soldiers of Armenian troops armed with cannons and machine guns before the eyes of Karabekir's troops and the people. When it was hoped that this operation would end, unfortunately since the beginning of February the cruelties inflicted on the Muslim population of the region of Shuraghel, Akpazar, Zarshad, and Childir have increased. According to documented information, 28 Muslim villages have been destroyed in the aforementioned region, more than 60,000 people have been slaughtered, many possessions and livestock have been seized, young Muslim women have been taken to Kars and Gumru, thousands of women and children who were able to flee their villages were beaten, raped and massacred in the mountains, and this aggression against the properties, lives, chastity and honour of the Muslims continued. It was the responsibility of the Armenian Government that the cruelties and massacres be stopped in order to alleviate the tensions of Muslim public opinion due to the atrocities committed by the Armenians, that the possessions taken from the Muslims be returned and that indemnities be paid, that the properties, lives, and honour of the Muslims be protected._ Avetis Aharonian, _From Sardarapat to Sevres and Lausanne_ Armenian Review, Vol. 16, No. 3-63, Autumn, Sep. 1963, pp. 47-57. p. 52 (second paragraph). _Your three Armenian chiefs, Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian are the ringleaders of the bands which have destroyed Muslim villages and have staged massacres in Zangezour, Surmali, Etchmiadzin, and Zangibasar. This is intolerable. Look - and here he pointed to a file of official documents on the table - look at this, here in December are the reports of the last few months concerning ruined Muslim villages which my representative Wardrop has sent me. The official Tartar communique speaks of the destruction of 300 villages by the Armenians._ p. 54 (fifth paragraph). _Yes, of course. I repeat, until this massacre of the Muslim is stopped and the three chiefs are not removed from your military leadership I hardly think we can supply you arms and ammunition._ _It is the armed bands led by Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian who during the past months have raided and destroyed many Muslim villages in the regions of Surmali, Etchmiadzin, Zangezour, and Zangibasar. There are official charges of massacres by the Armenians._ Doc. Dr. Azmi Suslu, _Russian View on the Genocide Committed by the Armenians Against the Muslims_ 1987, pp. 45-53. _The killings were organized by the doctors and the employers, and the act of killing was committed solely by the Armenian Army. More than eighty thousand unarmed and defenceless Muslims have been massacred in Erzincan and Erzurum. Large holes were dug and the defenceless Muslims were slaughtered like animals next to the holes. Later, the murdered Muslims were thrown into the holes. The Armenian who stood near the hole would say when the hole was filled with the corpses: 'Seventy dead bodies, well, this hole can take ten more.' Thus ten more Muslims would be cut into pieces, thrown into the hole, and when the hole was full it would be covered over with soil. The Armenians responsible for the act of murdering would frequently fill a house with eighty Muslims, and cut their heads off one by one. Following the Erzincan massacre, the Armenians began to withdraw towards Erzurum... The Armenian Army among those who withdrew to Erzurum from Erzincan raided the Moslem villages on the road, and destroyed the entire population, together with the villages._ A. Rawlinson, _Adventures in the Near East_ Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) (287 pages). _Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_ p. 184 (second paragraph) _I had received further very definite information of horrors that had been committed by the Armenian soldiery in Kars Plain, and as I had been able to judge of their want of discipline by their treatment of my own detached parties, I had wired to Tiflis from Zivin that 'in the interests of humanity the Armenians should not be left in independent command of the Moslem population, as, their troops being without discipline and not under effective control, atrocities were constantly being committed, for which we should with justice eventually be held to be morally responsible'_ A. Rawlinson, _Adventures in the Near East_ Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) (287 pages). _Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_ p. 178 (first paragraph) _In those Moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched for arms by the Armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of such search, and not only had many Moslems been killed by the Armenian Army, but horrible tortures had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as to where valuables had been hidden, of which the Armenians were aware of the existence, although they had been unable to find them._ p. 177 (third paragraph) _Armenian troops have pillaged and destroyed all the Moslem villages in the plain. Caravans of refugees were in the meanwhile constantly arriving from the plain, from which the whole Moslem population was fleeing with as much of their personal property as they could transport, seeking to obtain security and protection._ A. Rawlinson, _Adventures in the Near East_ Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) (287 pages). _Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_ p. 175 (first paragraph) _The arrival of this British brigade was followed by the announcement that Kars Province had been allotted by the Supreme Council of the Allies to the Armenians, and that announcement having been made, the British troops were then completely withdrawn, and Armenian occupation commenced. Hence all the trouble; for the Armenians at once commenced the wholesale robbery and persecution of the Muslem population on the pretext that it was necessary forcibly to deprive them of their arms. In the portion of the province which lies in the plains they were able to carry out their purpose, and the manner in which this was done will be referred to in due course._ p. 181 (first paragraph) _The Armenians from the plain were attacking the Kurdish people with artillery, with a large force in support._ Robert Dunn, _World Alive, A Personal Story_ Crown Publishers, Inc., New York (1952). _Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_ p. 361 (seventh paragraph) and p. 362 (first paragraph). 'The most of the Muslims slaughtered by the Armenians are inside houses. Come you and look.' 'No, dammit! My stomach isn't-' _We were under those trees by the mosque, in an open space. 'I don't believe you,' I said, but followed to a nail-studded door. The man pushed it ajar, then spurred away, leaving me to check on the corpse. I thought I should, this charge was so constant, so gritted my teeth and went inside. The place was cool but reeked of sodden ashes, and was dark at first, for its stone walls had only window slits. Rags strewed the mud floor around an iron tripod over embers that vented their smoke through roof beams black with soot. All looked bare and empty, but in an inner room flies buzzed. As the door swung shut behind me I saw they came from a man's body lying face up, naked but for its grimy turban. He was about fifty years old by what was left of his face - a rifle butt had bashed an eye. The one left slanted, as with Tartars rather than with Kurds. Any uniform once on him was gone, so I'd no proof which he was, and quickly went out, gagging at the mess of his slashed genitals._ Robert Dunn, _World Alive, A Personal Story_ Crown Publishers, Inc., New York (1952). _Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_ p. 363 (first paragraph). 'How many Muslim people lived there?' 'Oh, about eight hundred.' He yawned. 'Did you see any Muslim officers?' 'No, sir. I was in at dawn. All were Tartar civilians in mufti.' _The lieutenant dozed off, then I, but in the small hours a voice woke me - Dro's [Armenian architect of the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people - ye]. He stood in the starlight bawling out an officer. Anyone keelhauled so long and furiously I'd never heard. Then abruptly Dro broke into laughter, quick and simple as child's. Both were a cover for his sense of guilt, I thought, or hoped. For somehow, despite my boast of irreligion, Christian Armenian massacring 'infidels' was more horrible than the reverse would have been. From daybreak on, Armenian villagers poured in from miles around. The Armenian women plundered happily, chattering like ravens as they picked over the carcass of Djul. They hauled out every hovel's chattels, the last scrap of food or cloth, and staggered away, packing pots, saddlebags, looms, even spinning-wheels. 'Thank you for a lot, Dro,' I said to him back in camp. 'But now I must leave.' We shook hands, the captain said 'A bientot, mon camarade.' And for hours the old Molokan scout and I plodded north across parching plains. Like Lot's wife I looked back once to see smoke bathing all, doubtless in a sack of other Moslem villages by the Armenian Army up to the line of snow that was Iran.'_ Robert Dunn, _World Alive, A Personal Story_ Crown Publishers, Inc., New York (1952). _Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_ p. 354. _At morning tea, Dro [Armenian architect of the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people - ye] and his officers spread out a map of this whole high region called the Karabakh. Deep in tactics, Armenians spoke Russian, but I got their contempt for Allied 'neutral' zones and their distrust of promises made by tribal chiefs. A campaign shaped; more raids on Moslem villages._ p. 358. "It will be three hours to take," Dro told me. We'd close in on three sides. "The men on foot will not shoot, but use only the bayonets," Merrimanov said, jabbing a rifle in dumbshow. "That is for morale," Dro put in. "We must keep the Moslems in terror." "Soldiers or civilians?" I asked. "There is no difference," said Dro. "All are armed, in uniform or not." "But the women and children?" "Will fly with the others as best they may." Robert Dunn, _World Alive, A Personal Story_ Crown Publishers, Inc., New York (1952). _Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_ p. 360. _The ridges circled a wide expanse, its floors still. Hundreds of feet down, the fog held, solid as cotton flock. 'Djul lies under that,' said Dro [Armenian architect of the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people - ye], pointing. 'Our men also attack Muslims from the other sides.' Then, 'Whee-ee!' - his whistle lined up all at the rock edge. Bayonets clicked upon carbines. Over plunged Archo, his black haunches rippling; then followed the staff, the horde - nose to tail, bellies taking the spur. Armenia in action seemed more like a pageant than war, even though I heard our Utica brass roar. As I watched from the height, it took ages for Djul to show clear. A tsing of machine-gun fire took over from the thumping batteries; cattle lowed, dogs barked, invisible, while I ate a hunk of cheese and drank from a snow puddle. Mist at last folded upward as men shouted, at first heard faintly. Then came a shrill wailing. Now among the cloud-streaks rose darker wisps - smoke. Red glimmered about house walls of stone or wattle, into dry weeds on roofs. A mosque stood in clump of trees, thick and green. Through crooked alleys on fire, horsemen were galloping after figures both mounted and on foot. 'Tartarski!' shouted the Armenian gunner by me. Others pantomimed them in escape over the rocks, while one twisted a bronze shell-nose, loaded, and yanked breech-cord, firing again and again. Shots wasted, I thought, when by afternoon I looked in vain for fallen branch or Muslim body. But these shots and the white bursts of shrapnel in the gullies drowned the women's cries. At length all shooting petered out. I got on my horse and rode down toward Djul. It burned still but little flame showed now. The way was steep and tough, through dense scrub. Finally on flatter ground I came out suddenly, through alders, on smoldering houses. Across trampled wheat my brothers-in-arms were leading off animals, several calves and a lamb._ Robert Dunn, _World Alive, A Personal Story_ Crown Publishers, Inc., New York (1952). _Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_ p. 361 (fourth paragraph). _Armenian corpses came next, the first a pretty Muslim child with straight black hair, large eyes. She looked about twelve years old. She lay in some stubble where meal lay scattered from the sack she'd been toting. The bayonet had gone through her back, I judged, for blood around was scant. Between the breasts one clot, too small for a bullet wound, crusted her homespun dress. The next was a Muslim boy of ten or less, in rawhide jacket and knee-pants. He lay face down in the path by several huts. One arm reached out to the pewter bowl he'd carried, now upset upon its dough. Steel had jabbed just below his neck, into the spine. There were Muslim grownups, too, I saw as I led the sorrel around. Djul was empty of the living till I looked up to see beside me Dro's [Armenian architect of the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people - ye] German-speaking colonel. He said all Muslims who had not escaped were dead._ Robert Dunn, _World Alive, A Personal Story_ Crown Publishers, Inc., New York (1952). _Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_ p. 358. _More stories of Armenian murdering Muslims when the czarist troops fled north. My Armenian hosts told me of their duty here: to keep tabs on brigands, Muslim troop shifts, hidden arms, spies - Christian, Red or Tartar - coming in from Transcaucasus. Then they spoke of the hell that would break loose if Versailles were to put, as threatened, the Muslim vilayets of Turkey under the control of Erevan. Muslims under Christian rule? His lips smacked in irony under the droopy red moustache. That's bloodshed - just Smyrna over again on a bigger scale._ _The Armenians did exterminate the entire Muslim population of Russian Armenia as Muslims were considered inferior to the Armenians by the prominent leaders of the Dashnaks._ _Mikael Kaprilian_ 1919 Sahak Melkonian, _Preserving the Armenian Purity_ 1920 _In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul. It is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us create for ourselves. It certainly is possible to severe the artificial life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity' that some of us falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats in this alien land._ During the First World War and the ensuing years - 1914-1920, the Armenians through a premeditated and systematic genocide, tried to complete its centuries-old policy of annihilation against the Turks and Kurds by savagely murdering 2.5 million Muslims and deporting the rest from their 1,000 year homeland. The attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people. This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark Bristol, William Langer, Ambassador Layard, James Barton, Stanford Shaw, Arthur Chester, John Dewey, Robert Dunn, Papazian, Nalbandian, Ohanus Appressian, Jorge Blanco Villalta, General Nikolayef, General Bolkovitinof, General Prjevalski, General Odiselidze, Meguerditche, Kazimir, Motayef, Twerdokhlebof, General Hamelin, Rawlinson, Avetis Aharonian, Dr. Stephan Eshnanie, Varandian, General Bronsart, Arfa, Dr. Hamlin, Boghos Nubar, Sarkis Atamian, Katchaznouni, Rachel Bortnick, Halide Edip, McCarthy, W. B. Allen, Paul Muratoff and many others. J. C. Hurewitz, Professor of Government Emeritus, Former Director of the Middle East Institute (1971-1984), Columbia University. Bernard Lewis, Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near Eastern History, Princeton University. Halil Inalcik, University Professor of Ottoman History & Member of the American Academy of Arts & Sciences, University of Chicago. Peter Golden, Professor of History, Rutgers University, Newark. Stanford Shaw, Professor of History, University of California at Los Angeles. Thomas Naff, Professor of History & Director, Middle East Research Institute, University of Pennsylvania. Ronald Jennings, Associate Professor of History & Asian Studies, University of Illinois. Howard Reed, Professor of History, University of Connecticut. Dankwart Rustow, Distinguished University Professor of Political Science, City University Graduate School, New York. John Woods, Associate Professor of Middle Eastern History, University of Chicago. John Masson Smith, Jr., Professor of History, University of California at Berkeley. Alan Fisher, Professor of History, Michigan State University. Avigdor Levy, Professor of History, Brandeis University. Andreas G. E. Bodrogligetti, Professor of History, University of California at Los Angeles. Kathleen Burrill, Associate Professor of Turkish Studies, Columbia University. Roderic Davison, Professor of History, George Washington University. Walter Denny, Professor of History, University of Massachusetts. Caesar Farah, Professor of History, University of Minnesota. Tom Goodrich, Professor of History, Indiana University of Pennsylvania. Tibor Halasi-Kun, Professor Emeritus of Turkish Studies, Columbia University. Justin McCarthy, Professor of History, University of Louisville. Jon Mandaville, Professor of History, Portland State University (Oregon). Robert Olson, Professor of History, University of Kentucky. Madeline Zilfi, Professor of History, University of Maryland. James Stewart-Robinson, Professor of Turkish Studies, University of Michigan. _long list deleted_ _Newsweek_ (November 29, 1993, p. 50) _Armenians occupy a quarter of Azerbaijan's territory, and they've displaced almost a million Azerbaijani civilians. Friends of Armenia's powerful lobby in Washington, including the U.S. Government are suddenly a bit aghast. 'What we see now is a systematic destruction of every village in their way' says a senior state department official. It's vandalism._ _THE GUARDIAN_, 2 September 1993 NOWHERE TO HIDE FOR AZERI REFUGEES Armenia is pushing a new wave of displaced people towards Iran. Jonathan RUGMAN in Kanliq, south-west Azerbaijan, reports On the main road south through Kubatli province, thousands of men, women and children are packed into trucks at an Azeri checkpoint waiting for permission to leave. Helicopters shuttle in and out with the wounded, while a group of women sit wailing at the roadside, tearing at their bloodstained faces with their fingernails in a frenzy of grief. A new exodus of refugees is under way towards Azerbaijan's border with Iran as Armenia forces continue ignoring United Nations demands that they stop their offensive. This week the UNHCR began distributing 4,000 tents and 50,000 blankets to those displaced in the recent hostilities. The organisation said about 250,000 Azeris have been displaced so far this year and about 1 million since the massacre began in 1988. [Photo:] A man carries his elderly mother in the capital Baku. The UN says about 250,000 Azeris have been displaced this year. [Map: Shows areas invaded by Armenians] _Newsweek_ 16 March 1992 By Pascal Privat with Steve Le Vine in Moscow THE FACE OF A MASSACRE Azerbaijan was a charnel house again last week: a place of mourning refugees and dozens of mangled corpses dragged to a makeshift morgue behind the mosque. They were ordinary Azerbaijani men, women and children of Khojaly, a small village in war-torn Nagorno-Karabakh overrun by Armenian forces on Feb. 25-26. Many were killed at close range while trying to flee; some had their faces mutilated, others were scalped. While the victims' families mourned, Photo: `We will never forgive the Armenians': Azeri woman mourn a victim. _The New York Times_, Tuesday, March 3, 1992 MASSACRE BY ARMENIANS Agdam, Azerbaijan, March 2 (Reuters) - Fresh evidence emerged today of a massacre of civilians by Armenian militants in Nagorno-Karabakh, a predominantly Armenian enclave of Azerbaijan. Scalping Reported Azerbaijani officials and journalists who flew briefly to the region by helicopter brought back three dead children with the back of their heads blown off. They said shooting by Armenians has prevented them from retrieving more bodies. "Women and children have been scalped," said Assad Faradshev, an aide to Nagorno-Karabakh's Azerbaijani Governor. "When we began to pick up bodies, they began firing at us." The Azerbaijani militia chief in Agdam, Rashid Mamedov, said: "The bodies are lying there like flocks of sheep. Even the fascists did nothing like this." Truckloads of Bodies Near Agdam on the outskirts of Nagorno-Karabakh, a Reuters photographer, Frederique Lengaigne, said she had seen two trucks filled with Azerbaijani bodies. "In the first one I counted 35, and it looked as though there were as many in the second," she said. "Some had their head cut off, and many had been burned. They were all men, and a few had been wearing khaki uniforms." _The Sunday Times_ 1 March 1992 By Thomas Goltz, Agdam, Azerbaijan ARMENIAN SOLDIERS MASSACRE HUNDREDS OF FLEEING FAMILIES Survivors reported that Armenian soldiers shot and bayoneted more than 450 Azeris, many of them women and children. Hundreds, possibly thousands, were missing and feared dead. The attackers killed most of the soldiers and volunteers defending the women and children. They then turned their guns on the terrified refugees. The few survivors later described what happened: 'That's when the real slaughter began,' said Azer Hajiev, one of three soldiers to survive. 'The Armenians just shot and shot. And then they came in and started carving up people with their bayonets and knives.' 'They were shooting, shooting, shooting,' echoed Rasia Aslanova, who arrived in Agdam with other women and children who made their way through Armenian lines. She said her husband, Kayun, and a son-in-law were massacred in front of her. Her daughter was still missing. One boy who arrived in Agdam had an ear sliced off. The survivors said 2000 others, some of whom had fled separately, were still missing in the gruelling terrain; many could perish from their wounds or the cold. By late yesterday, 479 deaths had been registered at the morgue in Agdam's morgue, and 29 bodies had been buried in the cemetery. Of the seven corpses I saw awaiting burial, two were children and three were women, one shot through the chest at point blank range. Agdam hospital was a scene of carnage and terror. Doctors said they had 140 patients who escaped slaughter, most with bullet injuries or deep stab wounds. Nor were they safe in Agdam. On friday night rockets fell on the city which has a population of 150,000, destroying several buildings and killing one person. _The Times_ 2 March 1992 CORPSES LITTER HILLS IN KARABAKH (ANATOL LIEVEN COMES UNDER FIRE WHILE FLYING TO INVESTIGATE THE MASS KILLINGS OF REFUGEES BY ARMENIAN TROOPS) As we swooped low over the snow-covered hills of Nagorno-Karabagh we saw the scattered corpses. Apparently, the refugees had been shot down as they ran. An Azerbaijani film of the places we flew over, shown to journalists afterwards, showed DOZENS OF CORPSES lying in various parts of the hills. The Azerbaijanis claim that AS MANY AS 1000 have died in a MASS KILLING of AZERBAIJANIS fleeing from the town of Khodjaly, seized by Armenians last week. A further 4,000 are believed to be wounded, frozen to death or missing. The civilian helicopter's job was to land in the mountains and pick up bodies at sites of the mass killings. The civilian helicopter picked up four corpses, and it was during this and a previous mission that an Azerbaijani cameraman filmed the several dozen bodies on the hillsides. Back at the airfield in Agdam, we took a look at the bodies the civilian helicopter had picked up. Two old men a small girl were covered with blood, their limbs contorted by the cold and rigor mortis. They had been shot. _TIME_ March 16, 1992 By Jill SMOLOWE -Reported by Yuri ZARAKHOVICH/Moscow M A S S A C R E I N K H O J A L Y While the details are argued, this much is plain: something grim and unconscionable happened in the Azerbaijani town of Khojaly two weeks ago. So far, some 200 dead Azerbaijanis, many of them mutilated, have been transported out of the town tucked inside the Armenian-dominated enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh for burial in neighboring Azerbaijan. The total number of deaths - the Azerbaijanis claim 1,324 civilians have been slaughtered, most of them women and children - is unknown. Videotapes circulated by the Azerbaijanis include images of defaced civilians, some of them scalped, others shot in the head. _BBC1 Morning News at 07.37, Tuesday 3 March 1992_ BBC reporter was live on line and he claimed that he saw more than 100 bodies of Azeri men, women and children as well as a baby who are shot dead from their heads from a very short distance. _BBC1 Morning News at 08:12, Tuesday 3 March 1992_ Very disturbing picture has shown that many civilian corpses who were picked up from mountain. Reporter said he, cameraman and Western Journalists have seen more than 100 corpses, who are men, women, children, massacred by Armenians. They have been shot dead from their heads as close as 1 meter. Picture also has shown nearly ten bodies (mainly women and children) are shot dead from their heads. Azerbaijan claimed that more than 1000 civilians massacred by Armenian forces. _Channel 4 News at 19.00, Monday 2 March 1992_ 2 French journalists have seen 32 corpses of men, women and children in civilian clothes. Many of them shot dead from their heads as close as less than 1 meter. _Report from Karabakpress_ A merciless massacre of the civilian population of the small Azeri town of Khojali (Population 6000) in Karabagh, Azerbaijan, is reported to have taken place on the night of February 28 by the Soviet Armenian Army. Close to 1000 people are reported to have been massacred. Elderly and children were not spared. Many were badly beaten and shot at close range. A sense of rage and helplessness has overwhelmed the Azeri population in face of the well armed and equipped Armenian Army. The neighboring Azeri city of Aghdam outside of the Karabagh region has come under heavy Armenian artillery shelling. City hospital was hit and two pregnant women as well as a new born infant were killed. Azerbaijan is appealing to the international community to condemn such barbaric and ruthless attacks on its population and its sovereignty. _Boston Sunday Globe_ November 21, 1993 by Jon Auerbach Globe Correspondent CHAKHARLI, Azerbaijan -- The truckloads of scared and lost children, the sobbing mothers, the stench of sickness and the sea of blank faces in this mud-covered refugee camp obscure the deeper issue of why tens of thousands of Azeris have fled here. _What we see now is a systematic destruction of every village in their way,_ said one senior US official. _It's one of the most disgusting things we've seen._ _It's vandalism,_ the US official said. _The idea that there is an aggressive intent in a sound conclusion._ The United Nations estimates that there are more than 1 million refugees in Azerbaijan, roughly one seventh of the former Soviet republic's entire population. Thousands who fled to neighboring Iran are being slowly repatriated to refugee camps already bursting at the seams. But because of the Karabakh Armenians' policy of burning villages, relief organizations say there is no hope that the Azeris could return home anytime soon. At Chakharli, about 10 miles from Iran, more than 10,000 refugees are crammed into a makeshift tent city. Aziz Azizova, 33, arrived in the Iranian run camp about three weeks ago, after she and her five children were forced to flee their home in the village of Buik-Merjan. _I left my village with nothing, not even my shoes,_ she said. _You see how our children are living? Some of them are living right in the mud._ Azizova, like thousands of others, escaped by fleeing across the Arax River into neighboring Iran. The UN estimates that around 300 Azeris, mainly women and children, drowned in the river's currents. One of the people who did make it across was Samaz Mamedova, a 40-year-old accountant. Sitting with friends in tent No. 566 on a recent day, Mamedova explained how the Armenians seized her village in less than a half hour, forcing the entire population toward the river in a chaotic scramble for survival. _Cebbar Leygara_ Kurdish Leader - October 13, 1992 _Today's ethnic cleansing policies by the Serbians against Croatians and Muslims of Yugoslavia, as well as the Soviet Republic of Armenia's against the Muslim population of neighboring Azerbaijan, are really no different in their aspirations than the genocide perpetrated by the Armenian Government 78 years ago against the Turkish and Kurdish Muslims and Sephardic Jews living in these lands._ _Tovfik Kasimov_ Azeri Leader - September 25, 1992 _The crime of systematic cleansing by mass killing and extermination of the Muslim population in Soviet Republic of Armenia, Karabag, Bosnia and Herzegovina is an 'Islamic Holocaust' comparable to the extermination of 2.5 million Muslims by the Armenian Government during the WWI and of over 6 million European Jews during the WWII._ _The Times_ 3 March 1992 MASSACRE UNCOVERED By ANATOL LIEVEN More than sixty bodies, including those of women and children, have been spotted on hillsides in Nagorno-Karabakh, confirming claims that Armenian troops massacred Azeri refugees. Hundreds are missing. Scattered amid the withered grass and bushes along a small valley and across the hillside beyond are the bodies of last Wednesday's massacre by Armenian forces of Azerbaijani refugees. In all, 31 bodies could be counted at the scene. At least another 31 have been taken into Agdam over the past five days. These figures do not include civilians reported killed when the Armenians stormed the Azerbaijani town of Khodjaly on Tuesday night. The figures also do not include other as yet undiscovered bodies Zahid Jabarov, a survivor of the massacre, said he saw up to 200 people shot down at the point we visited, and refugees who came by different routes have also told of being shot at repeatedly and of leaving a trail of bodies along their path. Around the bodies we saw were scattered possessions, clothing and personnel documents. The bodies themselves have been preserved by the bitter cold which killed others as they hid in the hills and forest after the massacre. All are the bodies of ordinary people, dressed in the poor, ugly clothing of workers. Of the 31 we saw, only one policeman and two apparent national volunteers were wearing uniform. All the rest were civilians, including eight women and three small children. Two groups, apparently families, had fallen together, the children cradled in the women's arms. Several of them, including one small girl, had terrible head injuries: only her face was left. Survivors have told how they saw Armenians shooting them point blank as they lay on the ground. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

I'm I the only one who is sick of Vulis' trash?

No. Petro, Christopher C. petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff> snow@smoke.suba.com

Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:

On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

...

Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:

...

Vulis, grow up.

========================================================================= + ^ + | Ray Arachelian |FL| KAOS KERAUNOS KYBERNETOS |==/ \|/ |sunder@brainlink.com|UL|__Nothing_is_true,_all_is_permitted!_|=/\ <--+-->| ------------------ |CG|What part of 'Congress shall make no |=\/ /|\ | "A toast to Odin, |KA| law abridging the freedom of speech'|==\ + v + |God of screwdrivers"|AK| do you not understand? |=== ===================http://www.brainlink.COM/~sunder/===================== If the Macintosh is a woman... Then Windows is a Transvestite! ActiveX! ActiveX! Format Hard drive? Just say yes!

My friend and colleague, Dr. Serdar Argic, has cited the following sources in reference to Ray Arachelian's criminal dandruff-covered grandparents:

<48kb Spam message deleted.>

The friend and colleague of your whom you know says much about you. Yet another Net Loon. You action of posting a 48K spam to this list in attempt to get me upset has resulted in a single, half-felt yawn. Others may be pissed at your attempt at spamming me. I give not a shit.

Dr. Serdar Argic is a world-famous historian and Ray makes mistakes in English.

My original message to you stands: Vulis, grow up.

============================================================================= + ^ + | Ray Arachelian |FL| KAOS KERAUNOS KYBERNETOS |==/|\== \|/ |sunder@brainlink.com|UL|__Nothing_is_true,_all_is_permitted!_|=/\|/\= <--+-->| ------------------ |CG|What part of 'Congress shall make no |=\/|\/= /|\ | "A toast to Odin, |KA| law abridging the freedom of speech'|==\|/== + v + |God of screwdrivers"|AK| do you not understand? |======= ===================http://www.brainlink.COM/~sunder/========================= If the Macintosh is a woman... Then Windows is a Transvestite! ActiveX! ActiveX! Format Hard drive? Just say yes!

My good friend and colleage, Dr. Serdar Argic, has cited these additional sources regarding Ray Arachelian's criminal dandruff-covered grandparents: M A S S A C R E I N K H O J A L Y While the details are argued, this much is plain: something grim and unconscionable happened in the Azerbaijani town of Khojaly two weeks ago. So far, some 200 dead Azerbaijanis, many of them mutilated, have been transported out of the town tucked inside the Armenian-dominated enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh for burial in neighboring Azerbaijan. The total number of deaths - the Azerbaijanis claim 1,324 civilians have been slaughtered, most of them women and children - is unknown. Videotapes circulated by the Azerbaijanis include images of defaced civilians, some of them scalped, others shot in the head. _BBC1 Morning News at 07.37, Tuesday 3 March 1992_ BBC reporter was live on line and he claimed that he saw more than 100 bodies of Azeri men, women and children as well as a baby who are shot dead from their heads from a very short distance. _BBC1 Morning News at 08:12, Tuesday 3 March 1992_ Very disturbing picture has shown that many civilian corpses who were picked up from mountain. Reporter said he, cameraman and Western Journalists have seen more than 100 corpses, who are men, women, children, massacred by Armenians. They have been shot dead from their heads as close as 1 meter. Picture also has shown nearly ten bodies (mainly women and children) are shot dead from their heads. Azerbaijan claimed that more than 1000 civilians massacred by Armenian forces. _Channel 4 News at 19.00, Monday 2 March 1992_ 2 French journalists have seen 32 corpses of men, women and children in civilian clothes. Many of them shot dead from their heads as close as less than 1 meter. _Report from Karabakpress_ A merciless massacre of the civilian population of the small Azeri town of Khojali (Population 6000) in Karabagh, Azerbaijan, is reported to have taken place on the night of February 28 by the Soviet Armenian Army. Close to 1000 people are reported to have been massacred. Elderly and children were not spared. Many were badly beaten and shot at close range. A sense of rage and helplessness has overwhelmed the Azeri population in face of the well armed and equipped Armenian Army. The neighboring Azeri city of Aghdam outside of the Karabagh region has come under heavy Armenian artillery shelling. City hospital was hit and two pregnant women as well as a new born infant were killed. Azerbaijan is appealing to the international community to condemn such barbaric and ruthless attacks on its population and its sovereignty. _Boston Sunday Globe_ November 21, 1993 by Jon Auerbach Globe Correspondent CHAKHARLI, Azerbaijan -- The truckloads of scared and lost children, the sobbing mothers, the stench of sickness and the sea of blank faces in this mud-covered refugee camp obscure the deeper issue of why tens of thousands of Azeris have fled here. _What we see now is a systematic destruction of every village in their way,_ said one senior US official. _It's one of the most disgusting things we've seen._ _It's vandalism,_ the US official said. _The idea that there is an aggressive intent in a sound conclusion._ The United Nations estimates that there are more than 1 million refugees in Azerbaijan, roughly one seventh of the former Soviet republic's entire population. Thousands who fled to neighboring Iran are being slowly repatriated to refugee camps already bursting at the seams. But because of the Karabakh Armenians' policy of burning villages, relief organizations say there is no hope that the Azeris could return home anytime soon. At Chakharli, about 10 miles from Iran, more than 10,000 refugees are crammed into a makeshift tent city. Aziz Azizova, 33, arrived in the Iranian run camp about three weeks ago, after she and her five children were forced to flee their home in the village of Buik-Merjan. _I left my village with nothing, not even my shoes,_ she said. _You see how our children are living? Some of them are living right in the mud._ Azizova, like thousands of others, escaped by fleeing across the Arax River into neighboring Iran. The UN estimates that around 300 Azeris, mainly women and children, drowned in the river's currents. One of the people who did make it across was Samaz Mamedova, a 40-year-old accountant. Sitting with friends in tent No. 566 on a recent day, Mamedova explained how the Armenians seized her village in less than a half hour, forcing the entire population toward the river in a chaotic scramble for survival. _Cebbar Leygara_ Kurdish Leader - October 13, 1992 _Today's ethnic cleansing policies by the Serbians against Croatians and Muslims of Yugoslavia, as well as the Soviet Republic of Armenia's against the Muslim population of neighboring Azerbaijan, are really no different in their aspirations than the genocide perpetrated by the Armenian Government 78 years ago against the Turkish and Kurdish Muslims and Sephardic Jews living in these lands._ _Tovfik Kasimov_ Azeri Leader - September 25, 1992 _The crime of systematic cleansing by mass killing and extermination of the Muslim population in Soviet Republic of Armenia, Karabag, Bosnia and Herzegovina is an 'Islamic Holocaust' comparable to the extermination of 2.5 million Muslims by the Armenian Government during the WWI and of over 6 million European Jews during the WWII._ _The Times_ 3 March 1992 MASSACRE UNCOVERED By ANATOL LIEVEN More than sixty bodies, including those of women and children, have been spotted on hillsides in Nagorno-Karabakh, confirming claims that Armenian troops massacred Azeri refugees. Hundreds are missing. Scattered amid the withered grass and bushes along a small valley and across the hillside beyond are the bodies of last Wednesday's massacre by Armenian forces of Azerbaijani refugees. In all, 31 bodies could be counted at the scene. At least another 31 have been taken into Agdam over the past five days. These figures do not include civilians reported killed when the Armenians stormed the Azerbaijani town of Khodjaly on Tuesday night. The figures also do not include other as yet undiscovered bodies Zahid Jabarov, a survivor of the massacre, said he saw up to 200 people shot down at the point we visited, and refugees who came by different routes have also told of being shot at repeatedly and of leaving a trail of bodies along their path. Around the bodies we saw were scattered possessions, clothing and personnel documents. The bodies themselves have been preserved by the bitter cold which killed others as they hid in the hills and forest after the massacre. All are the bodies of ordinary people, dressed in the poor, ugly clothing of workers. Of the 31 we saw, only one policeman and two apparent national volunteers were wearing uniform. All the rest were civilians, including eight women and three small children. Two groups, apparently families, had fallen together, the children cradled in the women's arms. Several of them, including one small girl, had terrible head injuries: only her face was left. Survivors have told how they saw Armenians shooting them point blank as they lay on the ground. THE COMMITTEE FOR PEOPLE'S HELP TO KARABAKH (OF THE) ACADEMY OF SCIENCES OF THE AZERBAIJAN SSR - 1988 An Appeal to Mankind During the last three years Azerbaijan and its multinational population are vainly fighting for justice within the limits of the Soviet Union. All humanitarian, constitutional human rights guaranteed by the UN Charter, Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Helsinki Agreements, Human Problems International Forums, documents signed by the Soviet Union - all of them are violated. The USSR's President, government bodies do not defend Azerbaijan though they are all empowered to take necessary measures to guarantee life and peace. The 240,000 strong army of Armenian terrorists with Moscow's tacit consent wages an undeclared war of annihilation against Azerbaijan. As a result, a part of Azerbaijan has been occupied and annexed, thousands of people killed, thousands wounded. Some 400,000 Azerbaijanis have been brutally and inhumanly deported from the Armenian SSR, their historical homeland. Together with them 64,000 Russians and 62,000 Kurds have also been driven out, a part of them now settled in Azerbaijan. Some 80,000 Turkish-Meskhetians, Lezghins and representatives of other Caucasian nationalities who escaped from the Central Asia where the President and government bodies did not guarantee them the life and peace also suffered from these deportations. One of the scandalous vandalisms directed not only against Azerbaijan science but the world civilization as well is the Armenian extremists' destruction of the Karabakh scientific experimental base of The Institute of Genetics and Selection of the Academy of Sciences of the Azerbaijan SSR. We beg you for humanitarian help and political assistance, for the honour and dignity of 7 million Azerbaijanis are violated, its territory, culture and history are trampled, its people are shot. There is persistent negative image of Azerbaijanians abroad, and this defamation is spread over the whole world by Soviet mass media, Armenian lobby in the USSR and the United States. We are for a united, indivisible, sovereign Azerbaijan, we are for a common Caucasian home proclaimed in 1918 by one of the founding fathers of the Azerbaijan Democratic Republic - Muhammed Emin Rasulzade. But all these goals and expectations are trampled upon the Soviet leadership in favour of the Armenian expansionists encouraged by Moscow and intended to create a new '1,000 Year Reich' - the 'Great Armenia' - by annexing the neighboring lands. The world public opinion shed tears to save the whales, suffers for penguins dying out in the Antarctic Continent. But what about the lives of seven million human beings? If these people are Muslims, does it mean that they are less valuable? Can people be discriminated by their colour of skin or religion, by their residence or other attributes? All people are brothers, and we appeal to our brothers for help and understanding. This is not the first appeal of Azerbaijan to the world public opinion. Our previous appeals were unheard. However, we still carry the hope that the truth beyond the Russian and Armenian propaganda will one day reveal the extent of our suffering and stimulate at least as much help and compassion for Azerbaijan as tendered to whales and penguins. _The Age_ Melbourne, 6/3/92 By Helen WOMACK - Agdam, Azerbaijan, Thursday The exact number of victims is still unclear, but there can be little doubt that Azeri civilians were massacred by Armenian Army in the snowy mountains of Nagorno-Karabakh last week. Refugees from the enclave town of Khojaly, sheltering in the Azeri border town of Agdam, give largely consistent accounts of how Armenians attacked their homes on the night of 25 February, chased those who fled and shot them in the surrounding forests. Yesterday, I saw 75 freshly dug graves in one cemetery in addition to four mutilated corpses we were shown in the mosque when we arrived in Agdam late on Tuesday. I also saw women and children with bullet wounds in a makeshift hospital in a string of railway carriages. Khojaly, an Azeri settlement in the enclave mostly populated by Armenians, had a population of about 6000. Mr. Rashid Mamedov Commander of Police in Agdam, said only about 500 escaped to his town. _So where are the rest?_. Some might have taken prisoner, he said, or fled. Many bodies were still lying in the mountains because the Azeris were short of helicopters to retrieve them. He believed more than 1000 had perished, some of cold in temperatures as low as minus 10 degrees. When Azeris saw the Armenians with a convoy of armored personnel carriers, they realised they could not hope to defend themselves, and fled into the forests. In the small hours, the massacre started. Mr. Nasiru, who believes his wife and two children were taken prisoner, repeated what many other refugees have said - that troops of the former Soviet army helped the Armenians to attack Khojaly. _It is not my opinion, I saw it with my own eyes._ _The Washington Post_ 2/28/92 _Nagorno-Karabagh Victims Buried in Azerbaijani Town_ "Refugees claim hundreds died in Armenian Attack...Of seven bodies seen here today, two were children and three were women, one shot through the chest at what appeared to be close range. Another 120 refugees being treated at Agdam's hospital include many with multiple stab wounds." _The New York Times_ 3/6/92 _A Final Goodbye in Azerbaijan_ [Photo by Associated Press]: "At a cemetery in Agdam, Azerbaijan, family members and friends grieved during the burial of victims massacred by the Armenians in Nagorno-Karabagh. Chingiz Iskandarov, right, hugged the coffin containing the remains of his brother, one of the victims. A copy of Koran lay atop the coffin." _The Washington Post_ 3/6/92 _Final Embrace_ [Photo by Associated Press]: "Chingiz Iskenderov, right, weeps over coffin holding the remains of his brother as other relatives grieve at an Azarbaijani cemetery yesterday amid burial of victims killed by Armenians in Nagorno-Karabagh." _The Washington Times_ 3/2/92 _Armenian Raid Leaves Azeris Dead or Fleeing_ "...about 1,000 of Khojaly's 10,000 people were massacred by the Armenian Army in Tuesdays attack. Azerbaijani television showed truckloads of corpses being evacuated from the Khocaly area." _The Independent_ 2/29/92 By Helen Womack "Elif Kaban, a Reuter correspondent in Agdam, reported that after a massacre on Wednesday, Azeris were burying scores of people who died when Armenians overran the town of Khojaly, the second-biggest Azeri settlement in the area. 'The world is turning its back on what's happening here. We are dying and you are just watching,' one mourner shouted at a group of journalists." _Reuters_ 2/12/92 _Armenians Burn Azeri Village_ "Armenian Army attacked a strategic Azeri village...in Nagorno-Karabagh and burned it to the ground on Tuesday, Commonwealth television reported. Channel one television said the village of Malybeili, in the Khodzhalin district, was now cut off and a large number of wounded were left stranded. Itar-Tass news agency said several people were killed and 20 wounded in the attack on the village... Tass also said shells fired from Armenian villages into the Azeri populated town of Susha, just 6 miles south of Stepenakert, demolished two houses and damaged five others." _The Washington Times_ 3/3/92 _Massacre Reports Horrify Azerbaijan_ "Azeri officials who returned from the scene to this town about nine miles away brought back three dead children, the backs of their heads blown off...'Women and children had been scalped,' said Assad Faradzev, an aide to Karabagh's Azeri governor. Azeri television showed pictures of one truckload of bodies brought to the Azeri town of Agdam, some with their faces apparently scratched with knives or their eyes gouged out." _The Washington Post_ 3/3/92 _Killings Rife in Nagorno-Karabagh_ "Journalists in the area reported seeing dozens of corpses, including some of the civilians, and Azerbaijani officials said Armenians began shooting at them when they sought to recover the bodies." _The Times (London)_ 3/3/92 _Bodies Mark Site of Karabagh Massacre_ "A local truce was enforced to allow the Azerbaijanis to collect their dead and any refugees still hiding in the hills and forest. All are the bodies of ordinary people, dressed in the poor, ugly clorhing of workers...All the rest were civilians, including eight women and three small children. Two groups, apparently families, had fallen together, the children cradled in the women's arms. Several of them, including one small girl, had terrible head injuries: only her face was left. Survivors have told how they saw Armenians shooting them point blank as they lay on the ground." _The SUNDAY TIMES_ 8 March 1992 Thomas Goltz, the first to report the massacre by Armenian soldiers, reports from Agdam. Khojaly used to be a barren Azeri town, with empty shops and treeless dirt roads. Yet it was still home to thousands of Azeri people who, in happier times, tended fields and flocks of geese. Last week it was wiped off the map. As sickening reports trickled in to the Azerbaijani border town of Agdam, and the bodies piled up in the morgues, there was little doubt that Khojaly and the stark foothills and gullies around it had been the site of the most terrible massacre since the Soviet Union broke apart. I was the last Westerner to visit Khojaly. That was in january and people were predicting their fate with grim resignation. Zumrut Ezoya, a mother of four on board the helicopter that ferried us into the town, called her community "sitting ducks, ready to get shot". She and her family were among the victims of the massacre by the Armenians on February 26. "The Armenians have taken all the outlying villages, one by one, and the government does nothing." Balakisi Sakikov, 55, a father of five, said. "Next they will drive us out or kill us all," said Dilbar, his wife. The couple, their three sons and three daughters were killed in the massacre, as were many other people I had spoken to. "It was close to the Armenian lines we knew we would have to cross. There was a road, and the first units of the column ran across then all hell broke loose. Bullets were raining down from all sides. we had just entered their trap." The azeri defenders picked off one by one. Survivors say that Armenian forces then began a pitiless slaughter, firing at anything moved in the gullies. A video taken by an Azeri cameraman, wailing and crying as he filmed body after body, showed a grizzly trail of death leading towards higher, forested ground where the villagers had sought refuge from the Armenians. "The Armenians just shot and shot and shot," said Omar Veyselov, lying in hospital in Agdam with sharapnel wounds. "I saw my wife and daughter fall right by me." People wandered through the hospital corridors looking for news of the loved ones. Some vented their fury on foreigners: " Where is my daughter, where is my son ?" wailed a mother. "Raped. Butchered. Lost." _The Independent_ London, 12/6/92 _Painful Search_ The gruesome extent of February's killings of Azeris by Armenians in the town of Hojali is at last emerging in Azerbaijan - about 600 men, women and children dead. The State Prosecutor, Aydin Rasulov, the cheif investigator of a 15-man team looking into what Azerbaijan calls the "Hojali Massacre", said his figure of 600 people dead was a minimum on preliminary findings. A similar estimate was given by Elman Memmedov, the mayor of Hojali. An even higher one was printed in the Baku newspaper Ordu in May - 479 dead people named and more than 200 bodies reported unidentified. This figure of nearly 700 dead is quoted as official by Leila Yunusova, the new spokeswoman of the Azeri Ministry of Defence. FranCois Zen Ruffinen, head of delegation of the International Red Cross in Baku, said the Muslim imam of the nearby city of Agdam had reported a figure of 580 bodies received at his mosque from Hojali, most of them civilians. "We did not count the bodies. But the figure seems reasonable. It is no fantasy," Mr Zen Ruffinen said. "We have some idea since we gave the body bags and products to wash the dead." Mr Rasulov endeavours to give an unemotional estimate of the number of dead in the massacre. "Don't get worked up. It will take several months to get a final figure," the 43-year-old lawyer said at his small office. Mr Rasulov knows about these things. It took him two years to reach a firm conclusion that 131 people were killed and 714 wounded when Soviet troops and tanks crushed a nationalist uprising in Baku in January 1990. Officially, 184 people have so far been certified as dead, being the number of people that could be medically examined by the republic's forensic department. "This is just a small percentage of the dead," said Rafiq Youssifov, the republic's chief forensic scientist. "They were the only bodies brought to us. Remember the chaos and the fact that we are Muslims and have to wash and bury our dead within 24 hours." Of these 184 people, 51 were women, and 13 were children under 14 years old. Gunshots killed 151 people, shrapnel killed 20 and axes or blunt instruments killed 10. Exposure in the highland snows killed the last three. Thirty-three people showed signs of deliberate mutilation, including ears, noses, breasts or penises cut off and eyes gouged out, according to Professor Youssifov's report. Those 184 bodies examined were less than a third of those believed to have been killed, Mr Rasulov said. "There were too many bodies of dead and wounded on the ground to count properly: 470-500 in Hojali, 650-700 people by the stream and the road and 85-100 visible around Nakhchivanik village," Mr Manafov wrote in a statement countersigned by the helicopter pilot. "People waved up to us for help. We saw three dead children and one two-year-old alive by one dead woman. The live one was pulling at her arm for the mother to get up. We tried to land but Armenians started a barrage against our helicopter and we had to return." There has been no consolidation of the lists and figures in circulation because of the political upheavals of the last few months and the fact that nobody knows exactly who was in Hojali at the time - many inhabitants were displaced from other villages taken over by Armenian forces. _The Independent_ London, 12/6/92 Photographs: Liu Heung / AP Frederique Lengaigne / Reuter Aref Sadikov sat quietly in the shade of a cafe-bar on the Caspian Sea esplanade of Baku and showed a line of stitches in his trousers, torn by an Armenian bullet as he fled the town of Hojali just over three months ago, writes Hugh Pope. "I'm still wearing the same clothes, I don't have any others," the 51-year-old carpenter said, beginning his account of the Hojali disaster. "I was wounded in five places, but I am lucky to be alive." Mr Sadikov and his wife were short of food, without electricity for more than a month, and cut off from helicopter flights for 12 days. They sensed the Armenian noose was tightening around the 2,000 to 3,000 people left in the straggling Azeri town on the edge of Karabakh. "At about 11pm a bombardment started such as we had never heard before, eight or nine kinds of weapons, artillery, heavy machine-guns, the lot," Mr Sadikov said. Soon neighbours were pouring down the street from the direction of the attack. Some huddled in shelters but others started fleeing the town, down a hill, through a stream and through the snow into a forest on the other side. To escape, the townspeople had to reach the Azeri town of Agdam about 15 miles away. They thought they were going to make it, until at about dawn they reached a bottleneck between the two Azeri villages of Nakhchivanik and Saderak. "None of my group was hurt up to then ... Then we were spotted by a car on the road, and the Armenian outposts started opening fire," Mr Sadikov said. Mr Sadikov said only 10 people from his group of 80 made it through, including his wife and militiaman son. Seven of his immediate relations died, including his 67-year-old elder brother. "I only had time to reach down and cover his face with his hat," he said, pulling his own big flat Turkish cap over his eyes. "We have never got any of the bodies back." The first groups were lucky to have the benefit of covering fire. One hero of the evacuation, Alif Hajief, was shot dead as he struggled to change a magazine while covering the third group's crossing, Mr Sadikov said. Another hero, Elman Memmedov, the mayor of Hojali, said he and several others spent the whole day of 26 February in the bushy hillside, surrounded by dead bodies as they tried to keep three Armenian armoured personnel carriers at bay. As the survivors staggered the last mile into Agdam, there was little comfort in a town from which most of the population was soon to flee. "The night after we reached the town there was a big Armenian rocket attack. Some people just kept going," Mr Sadikov said. "I had to get to the hospital for treatment. I was in a bad way. They even found a bullet in my sock." Victims of massacre: An Azeri woman mourns her son, killed in the Hojali massacre in February (left). Nurses struggle in primitive conditions (centre) to save a wounded man in a makeshift operating theatre set up in a train carriage. Grief-stricken relatives in the town of Agdam (right) weep over the coffin of another of the massacre victims. Calculating the final death toll has been complicated because Muslims bury their dead within 24 hours. Amnesty International International Secretariat 1 Easton Street London WC1X 8DJ United Kingdom 22 APRIL 1994 ARMENIA - MUSLIM PRISONERS MURDERED IN "EXECUTION-TYPE SHOOTINGS" Forensic evidence released this month suggests that six Azerbaydzhani prisoners of war held in Armenia were victims of "execution-type shootings", according to a forensic expert. Following an announcement, in February, by the Armenian Foreign Ministry that eight Azerbaydzhani prisoners had been shot while attempting to escape, ten bodies were transferred from Armenia to Azerbaydzhan in March. Professor Derrick Pounder, head of the Department of Forensic Medicine at the University of Dundee, United Kingdom, began post- mortem examinations on the bodies at the beginning of April. The bodies had also undergone previous examinations by both the Armenians and the Azeris. He found that six of the men - Rustam Ramazan ogly Agev, Elehan Guseyn ogly Akhmedov, Elman Mamed ogly Akhmedov, Kurchat Kiyaz ogly Mamedov, Eldar Chakhbaba ogly Mamedov and Faig Gabil ogly Guliyev - had been murdered by a single gunshot wound to the head. He also found that in three of the six cases the muzzle of the gun had been in contact with the head at the time the shot was fired. It was not possible to determine the range at which the shot had been fired in the other three cases owing to earlier removal of physical evidence. Professor Pounder concluded that the pattern of gunshot wounds was not consistent with allegations that the six men had been shot while attempting to escape, and said that the common pattern of the wounds was "strongly suggestive of execution-type shootings". Amnesty International is urging the Armenian authorities to conduct a prompt, impartial and thorough investigation into the deaths of these six men, to make the findings public, and to bring to justice any perpetrators of execution-style killings, within the bounds of international law. The human rights organization is also urging the Armenian authorities to investigate the circumstances surrounding the deaths of the remaining four men whose bodies were returned, in order to determine if criminal proceedings are necessary in their cases also. Professor Pounder found that one of these had wounds to the throat in a pattern of injury consistent with suicide, one died of a single gunshot wound to the chest, and in two instances the cause of death could not be determined. HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH HELSINKI Formerly 485 FIFTH AVENUE,NEW YORK,NY 10017-6104, TEL(212)972-8400,FAX(212) 972-0905,EMAIL;hrwatchnycigc.apc.org. 1522 K STREET,NW,H910,WASHINGTON,DC 20005-1202,TEL(202)371-6592, FAX(202)371-0124,EMAIL,hrwatchdc igc apc.org 90 BOROUGH HIGH STREET,LONDON UK SE1 ILL,TEL(71)378-8008,FAX (71) 378-8029,EMAIL:hrwatchuk gn apc org MOSCOW, RUSSIAN FEDERATION, TEL and FAX(7095)265-4448 MARCH 2, 1994 PRESIDENT LEVON TER-PETROSSIAN MARSHAL BAGRAMIAN PROSPECT,26 375019 YEREVAN BY FAX:52-15-81 DEAR PRESIDENT TER-PETROSSIAN, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH\HELSINKI (Formerly Helsinki Watch) is the largest human rights organisation in the United States. We have closely followed the Armenian massacre of the Azeri people in Nagorno Karabakh, and have published two reports on violations of the Geneva Conventions. I am writing you to express our organisation's deep concern about the deaths of Azerbaijani prisoners of war in Armenia. According to the International Committee of the Red Cross, the following men were shot to death in an Armenian detention camp in Sritak in late January or early February: Rustam Ramazan-oglu Agaev,(birthdate unknown), from Masalin District Elman Mamed-oglu Akhmedov,b. 1961,from Yevlakh District Elshan Hussein-oglu Akhmedov,b.1974, from Saatlin District Bakhram AKIF-oglu Giiasov,b. 1972,from Siazan FAIG Gabil-oglu Guliev,b.1969,from Baku Enver Asker-oglu Jafarov,b.1972,from Sumgait Eldar Shahbaba-oglu Mamedov,b.1966,from Baku Girshad Kniaz-oglu Mamedov,b.1974 from Yevlakh I thank you for your attention to this matter and look forward to learning the results of the investigation. Yours sincerely, Jeri Laber Executive Director _Newsweek_ November 29, 1993, p. 50 _For the past seven months Armenian troops and tanks have swept across Azerbaijan -- a land grab exceeded only by what the Serbs have accomplished in Bosnia in the past year...Last month they pushed south all the way to the Iranian border, driving more than 60,000 Azerbaijani civilians across the Araks river into Iran -- and looting and torching vacant villages in their wake._ Christopher Walker, _Armenia_ New York (St. Martin's Press), 1980. This generally pro-Armenian work contains the following information of direct relevance to the Nazi Holocaust: 1) Dro (the Butcher), the former dictator of ex-Russian/Soviet Armenia and the architect of the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslims in Russian Armenia and Eastern Anatolia, the most respected of Nazi Armenian leaders, established an Armenian Provisional Republic in Berlin during World War II; 2) this _provisional government_ fully endorsed and espoused the social theories of the Nazis, declared themselves and all Armenians to be members of the Aryan _Super-Race_; 3) they published an Anti-Semitic, racist journal, thereby aligning themselves with the Nazis and their efforts to exterminate the Jews; and, 4) they mobilized an Armenian Army of up to 30,000 members which fought side by side with the Wehrmacht. _San Francisco Chronicle_ (December 11, 1983) (Editor's Mailbox - Section B) _We have first hand information and evidence of Armenian atrocities against our people (Jews). Members of our family witnessed the murder of 148 members of our family near Erzurum, Turkey, by Armenian neighbors, bent on destroying anything and anybody remotely Jewish and/or Muslim...Armenians were in league with Hitler in the last war, on his premise to grant themselves government if, in return, the Armenians would help exterminate Jews. Armenians were also hearty proponents of the anti-Semitic acts in league with the Russian Communists._ Signed Elihu Ben Levi, Vacaville, California. The Armenian publication in Germany, Hairenik (an official mouthpiece for the ex-Soviet Armenian Government), carried statements as follows:[*] _Sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements [the Jews] when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease, and when it becomes necessary for a people [the Nazis] to eradicate them in an uncommon method, these attempts are regarded as revolutionary. During the surgical operation, the flow of blood is a natural thing._[**] [*] James G. Mandalian, _Dro, Drastamat Kanayan,_ in the 'Armenian Review,' a Quarterly by the Hairenik Association, Inc., Summer: June 1957, Vol. X, No. 2-38. [**] Quoted by James Mandalian: _Who Are The Dashnags?_ Boston, Hairenik Press, 1944, pp. 13-4. _These European Armenians, with headquarters in Berlin, appealed to, and bargained with Hitler's emissaries for an 'independent' Armenian state. That they had to bootlick Nazi masters goes without saying. That, as potential officials of a puppet Nazi state, they would have assumed the infamous roles of the Paveliches, Antonescus, Lavals, Tisos or Vidkun Quislings was also a foregone conclusion. Once committed to it, there was no alternative to the price for 'independence' except subservience to Hitler._[*] [*] Arthur Derounian under the pseudonym 'John Roy Carlson,' _Armenian Affairs_ a Quarterly Journal of Armenian Studies, Winter 1949-50, p. 18. 'After all, who remembers today the extermination of the Tartars?' (Adolf Hitler, August 22, 1939: Ruth W. Rosenbaum) _The Muslim Holocaust - Musluman Soykirimi_ p. 213. _Thursday, August 2, 1984 issue of 'Armenian Reporter'_ In fact, by 1942, Nazi Armenians in Europe had established a vast network of pro-German collaborators, that extended over two continents. Thousands of Armenians were serving the German army and Waffen-SS in Russia and Western Europe. Armenians were also involved in espionage and fifth-column activities for Hitler in the Balkans and Arabian Peninsula. They were promised an 'independent' state under German 'protection' in an agreement signed by the 'Armenian National Council.' (A copy of this agreement can be found in the 'Congressional Record,' November 1, 1945; see Document 1.) On this side of the Atlantic, Nazi Armenians were aware of their brethrens alliance. They had often expressed pro-Nazi sentiments until America entered the war. In 1941, while the Jews were being assembled for their doom in the Nazi concentration camps, the Nazi Armenians in Germany formed the first Armenian battalion to fight alongside the Nazis. In 1943, this battalion had grown into eight battalions of 30,000-strong under the command of Dro (the butcher), who was the former dictator of x-Soviet/ Russian Armenia and the architect of the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people between 1914-1920. An Armenian National Council was formed by the notorious Dashnak Party leaders in Berlin, which was recognized by the Nazis. Encouraged by this, the Armenians summarily formed a provisional government that endorsed and espoused fully the principles of the Nazis and declared themselves as the members of the Aryan super race and full participants to Hitler's policy of extermination of the Jews. This Armenian-Nazi conspiracy against the Jews during WWII was an "encore" performance staged by the Armenians during WWI when they exterminated 2.5 million Muslim and Jewish people. As early as 1934, K. S. Papazian asserted in _Patriotism Perverted_ that the Armenians _lean toward Fascism and Hitlerism._[1] At that time, he could not have foreseen that the Armenians would actively assume a pro-German stance and even collaborate in World War II. His book was dealing with the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim and Jewish people in Eastern Anatolia and Russian Armenia. However, extreme rightwing ideological tendencies could be observed within the Soviet Armenian Government long before the outbreak of the Second World War. In 1936, for example, O. Zarmooni of the _Tzeghagrons_ was quoted in the _Hairenik Weekly_ (an official mouthpiece for the ex-Soviet Armenian Government): _The race is force: it is treasure. If we follow history we shall see that races, due to their innate force, have created the nations and these have been secure only insofar as they have reverted to the race after becoming a nation. Today Germany and Italy are strong because as nations they live and breath in terms of race. On the other hand, Russia is comparatively weak because she is bereft of social sanctities._[2] [1] K. S. Papazian, _Patriotism Perverted_ (Boston, Baikar Press 1934), Preface. [2] _Hairenik Weekly_ Friday, April 10, 1936, 'The Race is our Refuge' by O. Zarmooni. The Armenian fascism traditionally employed extreme means for the sake of Armenian cause, including massacres and genocide. In World War I, Russian Armenian Government annihilated the entire Muslim population of Russian Armenia and exterminated millions of Muslim and Sephardic Jews in Eastern Anatolia. While having collaborated with the Nazis against Stalin during the Second World War, Nazi Armenians changed their policy after Hitler's defeat. They now backed Stalin's claims on Eastern Turkish provinces, hoping that these would be annexed to Soviet Armenia and their Muslim population would be exterminated again. Stalin played on Armenian national sentiments to enlist the support of Armenians in the USSR and America for his imperial ambitions.[1] Stalin's ultimatum to the Turkish government led Truman to formulate his famous Doctrine. [1] Walter Kolarz, _Religion in the Soviet Union_ (London, Macmillan & Co Ltd; New York, St Martin's Press 1961), pp. 160-164. Nazi Germany had shown interest in nationalities, as a tool to dismember the Russian empire, back in World War I. In the time between the two World Wars, expelled leaders of Soviet nationalities were lobbying the capitals of European powers to gain support for their respective causes. Already in 1936, the SS Headquarters (Reichssicherheitshauptamt) had created bureaus (Vertrauensstellen) to contact emigrants and oversee their activities. The Vertrauensstellen for the Caucasus was led by the Armenian Deirajr Froundjian and the Georgian Lado Achmeteli.[1] Shortly after the occupation of Warsaw and Paris, the German Abwehr (Secret Service) assumed ties with exiled leaders of diverse Soviet nationalities, among them Russian Armenian Government officials.[2] One of the leaders of the ex-Soviet Armenian Government, the aforementioned General Dro (the butcher), who was the chief architect of the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people in Russian Armenia and Eastern Anatolia between 1914-1920. An Armenian National Council was formed by the notorious (Drastamat Kanajan) began working relationship with the Nazis around that time. [1] Patrick von zur Muhlen (Muehlen), _Zwischen Hakenkreuz und Sowjetstern_ (Droste Verlag Duesseldorf 1971), p. 37. [2] Ibid., p. 84. In April 1942, Hitler was preparing for the invasion of the Caucasus. A number of Nazi Armenian leaders began submitting plans to German officials in spring and summer 1942. One of them was Souren Begzadian Paikhar, son of a former ambassador of the Armenian Republic in Baku. Paikhar wrote a letter to Hitler, asking for German support to his Armenian national socialist movement Hossank and suggesting the creation of an Armenian SS formation in order _to educate the youth of liberated Armenia according to the spirit of the Nazi ideas._ He wanted to unite the Armenians of the already occupied territories of the USSR in his movement and with them conquer historic Muslim homeland. Paikhar was confined to serving the Nazis in Goebbels Propaganda ministry as a speaker for Armenian- and French-language radio broadcastings.[1] The Armenian-language broadcastings were produced by yet another Nazi Armenian Viguen Chanth.[2] [1] Patrick von zur Muhlen (Muehlen), p. 106. [2] Enno Meyer, A. J. Berkian, _Zwischen Rhein und Arax, 900 Jahre Deutsch-Armenische beziehungen_ (Heinz Holzberg Verlag-Oldenburg 1988), pp. 124 and 129. A genocide is a deliberate and organized massacre of people in an attempt to exterminate a race. This is the worst crime in history. It happened to the Muslims in Russian Armenia and Eastern Anatolia. 2.5 million Muslims were killed by Armenians in the worst ways imaginable. It is sickening to think that the human race is capable of such actions, but there is no denying the fact that the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslims happened. Furthermore, the establishment of Armenian units in the German army was favored by General Dro (the Butcher), the architect of the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people. He played an important role in the establishment of the Nzi Armenian _legions_ without assuming any official position. His views were represented by his men in the respective organs. An interesting meeting took place between Dro and Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler toward the end of 1942. Dro discussed matters of collaboration with Himmler and after a long conversation, asked if he could visit POW camp close to Berlin. Himmler provided Dro with his private car.[1] A minor problem was that some of the Soviet nationals were not _Aryans_ but _subhumans_ according to the official Nazi philosophy. As such, they were subject to German racism. However, Armenians were the least threatened and indeed most privileged. In August 1933, Armenians had been recognized as Aryans by the Bureau of Racial Investigation in the Ministry for Domestic Affairs. [1] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., pp. 112-113. Altogether 30,000 Nazi Armenians served in various units in the German Wehrmacht, according to Ara J. Berkian. 14,000 in predominantly Armenian army units, 6,000 in German army units, 8,000 in various working units and 2,000 in the Waffen-SS.[1] A number of these Nazi Armenians were volunteers from France and Greece who had chosen to commit themselves to the extermination of the European Jewry. Derounian says that _Nazi Armenians from France bore the mark 'Legion Armenienne.'_[2] That Nazi Armenians like Dro 'the Butcher', Armenian architect of the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people, and Nezhdeh sided with the Germans probably had an impact on the decision of Armenians who overwhelmingly opted for armed service. [1] Enno Meyer, A. J. Berkian, _Zwischen Rhein und Arax, 900 Jahre Deutsch-Armenische beziehungen_ (Heinz Holzberg Verlag-Oldenburg 1988), pp. 118/119. [2] John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), ibid., p. 19. In fall 1942, the Armenian infantry battalions 808 and 809 were formed, to be followed by battalions 810, 812 and 813 in spring 1943. In the second half of 1943 infantry battalions 814, 815 and 816 were created. These battalions together with other indigenous Caucasian units were attached to the infantry division 162. Also attached to ID 162 were the field battalions II/9, I/125 and I/198 which were formed between May 1942 and May 1943. Altogether twelve Armenian battalions served the Nazi army, if battalion II/73, which was not employed at any time, is to be included.[1] Most battalions were commanded by Nazi Armenian officers. Armenians wore German uniforms with an armband in the Dashnag colours red-blue-orange and the inscription _Armenien._ [1] Joachim Hoffmann, _Dies Ostlegionen 1941-1943, Turkotataren, Kaukasier und Wolgafinned im deutschen Heer_ (Verlag Rombach Freiburg 1976), p. 172. The Armenian SS unit was formed following a directive of Himmler in the beginning of December 1944.[1] The Armenian Liaison Staff actively recruited volunteers[2] and by February 1945 a cavalry formation of twenty thousand Armenians was integrated into the larger Caucasian Waffen-SS unit. The Armenian SS formation was employed last in Klagenfurt.[3] In addition to this exclusively Armenian unit, Nazi Armenians also served in the thirty eight other SS divisions, one of them even in the elite _Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler._[4] [1] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., pp. 136-137. [2] United States National Archives, T-175, Roll 167, pp 2700157/2700158, SS-Headquarters, Amtsgruppe D - Oststelle, see _Documents 3 and 4._ [3] Georg Tessin, _Verbaende und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS im zweiten Weltkrieg 1939-1945,_ (Frankfurt am Main 1965-1980), Volume 14, Armenian Legion/Waffen SS. [4] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., p. 119. Derounian says that _Greece was honeycombed with Armenians serving as Nazi spies._[1] Many Nazi Armenians were arrested by the British and sentenced by the Greek government as collaborators in espionage.[2] In Rumania many Nazi Armenians were found in Antonescu's Iron Guard during arrest of members after the war. Bulgaria was the operational base of Tzeghagrons-founder Garagin Nezhdeh, who commanded a network of espionage from there. [1] John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), ibid., p. 20. [2] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., p. 150. In Russia General Dro (the Butcher), the architect of the Muslim Holocaust in ex-Soviet/Russian Armenia and Eastern Anatolia, was working closely with the German Secret Service. He entered the war zone with his own men and acquired important intelligence about the Soviets. His experience with the Muslim Holocaust in ex-Soviet/Russian Armenia and Eastern Anatolia made him an invaluable source for the Germans.[1] [1] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., p. 113; Patrick von zur Muehlen, ibid., p. 84. Numerous articles in major newspapers (London Times) and periodicals (Newsweek) during the war, had suggested the existence of a significant collaboration between Armenians and the Nazis. Arthur Derounian deserves credit for being the first person to deal with this issue extensively. Derounian's motives were twofold: his deeply held democratic convictions gave him a sense of duty and he felt obliged to shed light on this yet another dark chapter of Armenian history. Concurrently, Derounian embarked on what one would call _crisis control_ or face-saving. In order to forestall any potential attacks on the larger Armenian community in the United States, he marginalized collaboration as deplorable but insignificant.[1] [1] John Roy Carlson (real name Arthur Derounian), _The Plotters_ E. P. Dutton & Company, Inc., New York 1946, p. 182. Also, it is not surprising that the Armenians collaborated with the Nazis. _Wholly opportunistic the Armenians have been variously pro-Nazi, pro-Russia, pro-Soviet Armenia, pro-Arab, pro-Jewish, as well as anti-Jewish, anti-Zionist, anti-Communist, and anti-Soviet - whichever was expedient._[1] [1] John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), _Cairo to Damascus_ Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1951, p. 438.

Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu> writes:

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM said:

...

Dr. Serdar Argic is a world-famous historian

Hmm, that's odd, I had heard he was a CSci grad student here.

I guess I'll have to take a stroll over and check out the PhD thesis, probably subtitled "Determining meaning of words by usage; Turkey can also be a bird".

Yes. Timmy May is a fat turkey. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

mianigand@outlook.net (Michael Peponis) writes:

Sandy made you a fair offer, if you are out to prove that Tim May is an <insert insult here> and you are the divine being of cryptology,

Correction: I don't claim to be the divine being of cryptology.

then show up to one of the meetings and prove yourself in person, or atleast insult Tim to his face.

I think to talk about cryptography to the San Francisco Gay and Lesbian Cypherpunks is to throw beads before the swine. Timmy May is an ignorant liar. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:

...

I think to talk about cryptography to the San Francisco Gay and Lesbian Cypherpunks is to throw beads before the swine.

Dimitri, the expression is to cast pearls before swine. If you wish to be rude and insulting, at least try to avoid looking like an ignorant Cossack. If you actually feel this way about the Bay area Cypherpunks, why have you given a provisional Yes to your visit? Smells of intellectual dishonest and cowardice to me.

You have to beg. You have to grovel. You have to prove yourselves worthy of the honor. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:

...

You have to beg. You have to grovel. You have to prove yourselves worthy of the honor.

So it IS intellectual dishonesty and cowardice. I thought so.

Tsk tsk. You're not begging. You're not groveling. How do you plan to convince me that you're worthy? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:

...

Tsk tsk. You're not begging. You're not groveling. How do you plan to convince me that you're worthy?

I have no such plan because I feel nothing but moral, cultural, social and intellectual superiority to Dimitri. I invited him to California out of curiosity. I studied slime mold in biology class for the same reason. He has been made a generous offer. It still stands. It's his decision to be either a man our a mouse (or a slime mold). If he grows some gonads, I'll be very surprised but pleased. In the meantime, I expect he will keep up his cowardly, shoot-from-ambush attacks. No matter, we've all seen worse.

You yourself doubt that you are worthy. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:

On Sun, 20 Oct 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

...

...

The friend and colleague of your whom you know says much about you. Yet another Net Loon. You action of posting a 48K spam to this list in attempt to get me upset has resulted in a single, half-felt yawn. Others may be pissed at your attempt at spamming me. I give not a shit.

Dr. Serdar Argic is a world-famous historian and Ray makes mistakes in English.

And both your points are totally irrelevant, if not outright wrong.

...

...

My original message to you stands: Vulis, grow up.

<51Kb spam message deleted.>

Don't interfere with possible stego transmissions, Ray.

Vulis, this is your 2nd spam to this list which is totally unrelated to any cypherpunk issues. As this is totally off topic, flame mail, and spam, I suggest you grow up. Again my original message to you stand: grow up.

2nd, since you are bent on sending your flames to this list, I move to vote you off the list.

Have a nice day.

And I move to vote to legalize same-sex marriage. My good friend and colleague, the world-famous historian Serdar Argic, has cited these additional references concerning Ray Arachelian's criminal dandruff-covered grandparents: _Mitteilungsblatt_ Berlin, December 1939, Nr. 2 and 5-6 Yet another historical fact: a fact that for years has been deliberately forgotten, concealed, and wiped from memory - the fact of Armenian-Nazi collaboration. A magazine called Mitteilungsblatt der Deutsch-Armenischen Gesselschaft is the clearest and most definite proof of this collaboration. The magazine was first published in Berlin in 1938 during Nazi rule of Germany and continued publication until the end of 1944. Even the name of the magazine, which implies a declaration of Armenian-Nazi cooperation, is attention-getting. This magazine, every issue of which proves the collaboration, is historically important as documentary evidence. It is a heap of writing that should be an admonition to world opinion and to all mankind. In Nazi Germany, Armenians were considered to be an Aryan race and certain political, economic, and social rights were thus granted to them. They occupied positions in public service and were partners in Nazi practices. The whole world of course knows what awaited those who were not considered _Aryan_ and what befell them. The Tzeghagrons (Armenian Racial Patriots -- Nazi Armenians) was the youth organization of the Armenians. It was based in Boston (where Muslim/Jewish Holocaust apologists of SDPA/Armenian Church are located) but had followers in Armenian colonies all over the world. Literally Tzeghagron means _to make a religion of one's race._ The architect of the Armenian Racial Patriots was Garegin Nezhdeh, a Nazi Armenian who became a key leader of collaboration with Hitler in World War II. In 1933, he had been invited to the United States by the Central Committee of the Armenians to inspire and organize the American-Armenian youth. Nezhdeh succeeded in unifying many local Armenian youth groups in the Tzeghagrons. Starting with 20 chapters in the initial year, the Tzeghagrons grew to 60 chapters and became the largest and most powerful Nazi Armenian organization. Nezhdeh also provided the Tzeghagrons with a philosophy: _The Racial Religious beliefs in his racial blood as a deity. Race above everything and before everything. Race comes first._[1] [1] Quoted in John Roy Carlson (real name Arthur Derounian), _Armenian Affairs_ Winter, 1949-50, p. 19, footnote. The Armenians were deeply anti-semitic as well. In the May 10, 1936 edition of _Hairenik Weekly_ (an official mouthpiece for the ex-Soviet Armenian Government) the vice-mayor of Bucharest, Rumania is quoted as saying: _The Armenians helped us not to become the slaves of the Jewish elements in our country._ In another edition, an author named Captain George Haig writes: _And the type of Jew who is imported to Palestine...is not anything to be proud about. Their loose morals, and other vices were unknown to the Arabs prior to Balfour Declaration, on top of all communist activities were the cause of most of the Arab criticism._[1] [1] Captain George Haig, _The Case of Palestine_ in Hairenik Weekly, Friday, September 25, 1936. As amply admitted by the ex-Soviet Armenian Government, the Armenians were also fascist. Before Pearl Harbor, the Dashnak daily _Hairenik_ [an official mouthpiece for the ex-Soviet Armenian Government] (not to be confused with the Tzeghagrons _Hairenik Weekly_) expressed pro-Nazi sentiments: _And came Adolf Hitler, after herculean struggles. He spoke to the racial heart strings of the German, opened the fountain of his national genius, strock down the spirit of defeatism...At no period since the World War had Berlin conducted so realistic, well organized, and planned policy as now, since Hitler's assumption to power...And whatever others may think concerning Hitlerism and Fascism as a system of Government, it is proved that they have revitalized and regenerated the two states, Germany and Italy._[1] [1] _Hairenik_ official organ of the Dashnaktsuitune, Sept. 17, 1936; quoted in John Roy Carlson (see endnote 1), p. 21. During World War II, while the Turkish Government was giving asylum to many Jews fleeing from Hitler's tyranny, anti-Semitism engulfed the Armenian circles in the Nazi-occupied territories. A publication of the Armenian Information Service in New York, entitled Dashnak Collaboration With The Nazi Regime, purports to show that Armenian sympathies with racism had reached dangerous proportions. The following quotation from the Armenian daily Hairenik of 19, 20 and 21 August 1936 exposes something much more than prejudice and bigotry: _Jews being the most fanatical nationalists and race-worshippers... are compelled to create an atmosphere..of internationalism and world citizenship in order to preserve their race...As the British use battleships to occupy lands..Jews use internationalism or communism as a weapon..Sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease. And when it becomes necessary for a people to eradicate them...these attempts are regarded revolutionary. During a surgical operation, the flow of blood is a natural thing...Under such conditions, dictatorships seem to have a role of saviour [1]._ [1] Quoted by James Mandalian: _Who are the Dashnags?_ Boston, Hairenik Press, 1944, pp. 13-4. In May 1935 the Armenians of Bucharest attacked the Jews of that city, while the Greeks of Salonika attacked the Jews in the August of the same year. During World War II, Armenian volunteers, under the wings of Hitler's Germany, were used in rounding up Jews and other ''undesirables'' destined for the Nazi concentration camps. The Armenians also published a German-language magazine, with fascist and anti-Semitic tendencies, supporting Nazi doctrines directed to the extermination of 'inferior' races [1]. This is confirmed by Armenophil Christopher J. Walker, who admits that the Armenians collaborated with the Nazis. According to him, members of the Dashnak Party, then living in the occupied areas, including a number of prominent persons, entertained pro-Axis sympathies. A report in an American magazine went so far as to claim that the Nazis had picked on the Dashnaktsutiun to do fifth- column work, promising the party an autonomous state for its cooperation. Walker goes on to claim that relations between the Nazis and the Dashnaks living in the occupied areas were close and active. On 30 December 1941 an Armenian battalion was formed by a decision of the Army Command (Wehrmacht), known as the 'Armenian 812th Battalion'. It was commanded by Dro, and was made up of a small number of committed recruits, and a larger number of Armenians. Early on, the total number of recruits was 8,000; this number later grew to 30,000. The 812th Battalion was operational in Crimea and the North Caucasus.(These are the dates and numbers given by Walker[3].) A year later, on 15 December 1942, an Armenian National Council was granted official recognition by Alfred Rosenberg, the German Minister of the occupied areas. The Council's president was Professor Ardashes Abeghian, its vice-president Abraham Giulkhandanian, and it numbered among its members Nzhdeh and Vahan Papazian. From that date until the end of 1944 it published a weekly journal, Armenien, edited by Viken Shant (the son of Levon), who also broadcast on Radio Berlin. The whole idea was to prove to the Germans that the Armenians were 'Aryans'. With the aid of Dr. Paul Rohrbach they seemed to have achieved this as the Nazis did not persecute the Armenians in the occupied lands [2]. [1] Turkkaya Ataov: _Armenian Extermination of the Jews and Muslims_ 1984, p. 91. [2] C.J. Walker: _Armenia_ London, 1980, pp. 356-8. _Emperor Romanus I Lecapenus, in about 935, again ordered the forcible conversion of all the Jews of Byzantium, leading to the murder of hundreds of Jews and the desecration of many synagogues throughout the empire. All the while Jews came under increasingly savage attack by Byzantine popular preachers and writers as well as by officials trying to stir the populace in support of the Crusading knights coming from the West to wrest the Holy Land from the "infidel Muslims". As a result, Emperor Andronicus I Comnenus (1183-85) again attempted to convert the Jews to Christianity, though by persuasion and argument rather than force. When Crusaders passed through Constantinople on their way to the Holy Land, they invariably were assigned to camp next to the Jewish quarters, particularly that adjacent to the Galata Tower, and usually spent most of their spare time attacking and killing Jews and stealing their properties. At the same time they stirred local populace to similar activities. It was at this time, also, that Constantinople's Armenians joined the Greeks in attacking Judaism for the first time. [1]_ [1] Yvonne Friedman, 'Antijudischen Polemik des 12 jahrhunderts', Kairos XXVI/1-2 (1984), 80-88. ''Blood libel accusations were made against Jews by Ottoman Christian subjects starting in the sixteenth century, most frequently in the Arab provinces, first at Jerusalem in 1546. The most famous Christian assault on Ottoman Jews in medieval times came in the central Anatolian town of Amasya some time between 1530 and 1540, when a blood-libel accusation against local Jews was spread by local Armenians who said that an Armenian woman had seen Jews slaughter a young Armenian boy and use his blood at the feast of Passover. Several days of rioting and pillaging and attacks on Jews followed...Later, however, the Armenian boy who supposedly had been murdered was found and the Ottoman governor punished the Armenian accusers, though nothing could be done about the Jews who had suffered.''[1] ''There were literally thousands of incidents in subsequent years, invariably resulting from accusations spread among Greeks and Armenians by word of mouth, or published in their newspapers, often by Christian financiers and merchants who were anxious to get the Jews out of the way, resulting in isolated and mob attacks on Jews, and burning of their shops and homes [2]. The attacks were brutal and without mercy. Women, children, and aged Jewish men were frequently attacked, beaten and often killed.''[3] [1] Stanford J. Shaw, ''Christian Anti-Semitism in the Ottoman Empire'', Belleten C. LIV, 68, p.1103 (1991). [2] Abraham Ben-Yakob (Jerusalem), ''The Immigration of Iraki Jews to the Holy Land in the 19th Century'', paper delivered to the First International Congress for the Study of Sephardic and Oriental Judaism, 27 June 1978. [3] Stanford J. Shaw, ''Christian Anti-Semitism in the Ottoman Empire'', Belleten C. LIV, 68, p.1129 (1991) By Andrew Sackser: Throughout history the children of Israel have suffered at hands of others. A people set apart from their neighbors by their faith, countless. Jews have often had to pay for this faith with their lives. There was, however, one haven where Jews did not suffer the large-scale persecution characterizing their entire existence. This haven was Turkey. For over five hundred years Jews have flourished there, enjoying relatively uninterrupted freedom and safety that has only been rivaled in America. This year marks the quincentennial anniversary of the ingathering of Jews to Turkey, and highlights one of the brighter chapters in Jewish history. ... Source: HIRHURIM - The Jewish Magazine of Brendeis University (Massachusetts). Vol. 1, No: 2, Spring 1992

On Tue, 22 Oct 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

Nonsense. Timmy, Sandy, and a few other jerks on this mailing list are obsessed with my alleged Cossack (???) ethnicity. The massacres perpetrated by the grandparents and cousins of the censorous flamer, who actually distributes a "filtered" version of the mailing list - with responses to his flames edited out, is more on-topic than anything Timmy May has ever posted.

I don't debate what Tim May has posted or not. His value to this list far outweighs yours. I debate that what you are posting here in this thread is nothing more than flames, and therefore off topic. My ancestors are not a topic for the cypherpunks, and if you go and read messages sent by me your way have zero refrences to your ethnic background. Your racially loaded, "dandruff-covered" vitriolic flames have no place here. However this is totally irrelevant since the subject is off topic. As for "censorous flamer" you sir have done plenty to make my filtered list thrive. I have received by far more new subscribers to the filtered version than ever before. Why? Because everyone is tired of you and your silly flames. Were I mercenary enough to charge money for the filtered list, you, sir would have made me a rich man. However, you are doing nothing to hurt me in any way. I don't care what your oppinions are as to my ancestry, nor do I care to satisfy them one way or another by answering your cretinous flames. Other than to point out that you need some serious growing up. I've seen 3 year olds more mature than you Vulis. You seem to think that you can get away with anything. But keep pushing, eventually you'll say something that will wind you up with a slander suit. ============================================================================= + ^ + | Ray Arachelian |FL| KAOS KERAUNOS KYBERNETOS |==/|\== \|/ |sunder@sundernet.com|UL|__Nothing_is_true,_all_is_permitted!_|=/\|/\= <--+-->| ------------------ |CG|What part of 'Congress shall make no |=\/|\/= /|\ | "A toast to Odin, |KA| law abridging the freedom of speech'|==\|/== + v + |God of screwdrivers"|AK| do you not understand? |======= ========================http://www.sundernet.com============================= If the Macintosh is a woman... Then Windows is a Transvestite! ActiveX! ActiveX! Format Hard drive? Just say yes!

On Wed, 23 Oct 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis (spammer and flame artist) KOTM wrote:

I used to think that ethnic flames were off-topic for cypherpunks, but seeing how Timmy May and his friends sput off every day about "crazy Russians", I'm beginning to think that it may be on-topic.

Right. How many "crawzy Russians" messages have you seen from me? If I've attacked you, it's your cowardice and your spamming that I've attacked. Show me a message I've posted that attacks your ancestry?

Surely the fact that Armenians have massacred more Jews and Moslems during 20th century alone than there are Armenians has certain connections to assassination politics.

Nice try. Assassination Politics have little to do with your masacres, and I am not about to bring up the earlier massacre of Armenians by Turks. There is of course a second side to every coin, but of course you fail to report on that, because your reports are of the yellowest form of journalism. It is indeed a nice try, but all you are doing is posting spam news postings which are copyrighted. And again, you didn't answer the question of whether or not you received permission to copy those texts and post them on line. Had you brought up the question of how this applies to assasination politics, you might have gotten away with some of it, but alas, you didn't think of that until now Next question - if that stuff has any relation to assasination politics, why didn't you bring it up until now? Possibly because you needed some reason to justify your flames, right? :) Your excuses are very very thin Vulis.

...

As for "censorous flamer" you sir have done plenty to make my filtered list thrive. I have received by far more new subscribers to the filtered version than ever before. Why? Because everyone is tired of you and your silly flames. Were I mercenary enough to charge money for the filtered list, you, sir would have made me a rich man.

I pity the fools who want a genodical maniac to filter what they read.

Maybe so, but you are the reason they have joined my list. Doesn't that just warm the cockles of your heart? You are actually helping my filtered list with your cretinous flames and spams. Doesn't it make you feel good?

...

However, you are doing nothing to hurt me in any way. I don't care what your oppinions are as to my ancestry, nor do I care to satisfy them one way or another by answering your cretinous flames.

You certainly write several times more on this subject than I do.

Judging at how you like to send 48Kb spams every once in a while - technically not written by you, yes - you seem to have a lot more racial prejudice than you would like others to believe. Again, where did I bring up your ancestry? And where did you bring up mine? You seem to have little tiny balls, and one way you inflate them is by claiming to have been racially snubbed, but the truth is you are attempting to damage my reputation with racial slanders. Tell me Vulis, and prove this, in what way am I responsible for the single death or maiming of any person? Show us the evidence. Not your flamed news postings, but real evidence. I was not born in the region where that war exists, I never lived there. In fact, my parents weren't even born there. You see Vulis, my grandparents left that scraggy piece of land called Armenia while their families were masacred by the Turks. So how is it that you claim that my ancestors and are responsible for wars going on now when they weren't even anywhere near it? You also insinuate that by extension I am responsible for attacks against Muslims and Jews. That too is slanderous and racist, as racist as any attack you claim has wronged you. I'd call that accusation and lack of proof slanderous. What do the lawyers on this list think? Hrmmm?

...

You seem to think that you can get away with anything. But keep pushing, eventually you'll say something that will wind you up with a slander suit.

Spoken like a true Libertarian. They always threaten to sue for libel whenever they disagree with someone.

And why not? If you libel my name, it will cost you. And that's not libertarianism, it's capitalism. Just as trademark infringement and copyright laws are settled through money. (Speaking of copyright, you've yet to prove written permission for your repostings sir.) ============================================================================= + ^ + | Ray Arachelian |FL| KAOS KERAUNOS KYBERNETOS |==/|\== \|/ |sunder@sundernet.com|UL|__Nothing_is_true,_all_is_permitted!_|=/\|/\= <--+-->| ------------------ |CG|What part of 'Congress shall make no |=\/|\/= /|\ | "A toast to Odin, |KA| law abridging the freedom of speech'|==\|/== + v + |God of screwdrivers"|AK| do you not understand? |======= ========================http://www.sundernet.com============================= If the Macintosh is a woman... Then Windows is a Transvestite! ActiveX! ActiveX! Format Hard drive? Just say yes!

Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

Michael Peponis wrote:

...

:> > > Vulis, grow up. That about sums it up. It's one thing to endlessly insult Tim May. I can just ignore those. It's another thing to send huge files full of irrevelent bable about genocide in some third world country that I have to wait till it downloads before I can make the determination that it's pure garbage. (No, I don't killfile people on this list, maybe I should start)

[snip]

Gee, genocide everywhere. If you say the word often enough, it loses some of doesn't it? How does it make you feel to know that you're here because your

It certainly rivals the Holocaust of 6M Jews during WW2. One important difference is that Nazi Germans had specially built death camps with trained personnel, while in 1905, 1914, and again in 1992, every Armenian wanted to take part in the massacres.

survived, probably because they were ruthless enough to trample on those less defend themselves. Now I'm gonna catch hell for posting more noise, so all t now, let's stick our heads back in the sand. It's not our responsibility, 'c all, we're just crypto people.

As I said, *I* don't see what relevance ethnic flames could possibly have to a supposedly crypto-related mailing list, but Timmy May and his few friends clearly disagree - witness their many rants about Russians and Cossacks (????) as well as attacks on mormons. I also recall some clearly anti-Semetic rants from Timmy May (something about Israel deserving to be nuked). As for Ray, he's a typical hate-filled Armenian. Armenian heritage has been defined for centuries in terms of "race-worship" and hatred for Moslems, Jews, and anyone else non-Armenian. It's somewhat surprising to see such stereotypical "old-country" behavior in an alleged Californian. And I don't see any evidence that Timmy or Ray are "crypto people". --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

Is Ray the genocidal maniac going to be represented by the legal team of Helena Kobrin and Cantor & Siegal? I'd nominate my good friend, Dr. John M. Grubor (the founder of Internet), for Ray's all-star legal team, except that he's been disbarred. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, Black Unicorn wrote to Dimitri:

If you don't watch it I'll have a pair of my staff represent [Ray] free of charge.

Now THAT would be a community service. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:

...

On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, Black Unicorn wrote to Dimitri:

...

If you don't watch it I'll have a pair of my staff represent [Ray] free of charge.

Now THAT would be a community service.

Why don't you use the funds pledges for my defunct trip to California for Ray's lithium bill.

Suggesting that a person is on a psychoactive mediciation with the purpose of harming that persons image or character is likely actionable. I'd be careful if I were you. If said individual ever manages to substantiate damages you've got an interesting time ahead of you.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

-- Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures Finger for Public Key Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern Vote Monarchist Switzerland

"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> wrote: [snip] {Well as much as it pains me to take Dimitri's side I doubt that any damages {can be proved by his statements on this list. My reasoning for this opinion {is as follows: { {A. Dimitri is a nut, kook, ...ect. Definitely suffering from dimished {capacity. { {B. Everyone on the list is aware of point A. BZZZZT. Point A well taken. Point B fails, unfortunately. Brought to my attention not so long ago by a post something along the lines of "I'll take it for granted that Timmy May is a wanker, but what about the crypto stuff on this list." You can't disregard that there is a constant rotation of subscribers to this list. {C. So with A & B true when Dimitri makes his nutty statements they are taken {by the list as just that, nutty statements. You're correct, so long as it's someone that's been on the list for long enough to realize that DV appears to have a problem distinguishing real information from his fantasies. By the by, I'd be happy to spend a few bucks to defray those legal expenses, if it actually comes to that. Either that, or I'll be happy to supply the rolled-up newspaper to whack him upon the nose.

On Sat, 26 Oct 1996, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

Black Unicorn wrote:

...

I'd be careful if I were you. If said individual ever manages to substantiate damages you've got an interesting time ahead of you.

OK, suppose that this list was for legal punks...

[Facts deleted]

Who is right? Did Mr. Y's friends really libel Mr. X?

You really want an answer to this?

Thank you very much...

- Igor.

-- Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures Finger for Public Key Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern Vote Monarchist Switzerland

In <Pine.SUN.3.94.961026164648.10071G-100000@polaris>, on 10/26/96 at 04:48 PM, Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li> said:

On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

...

Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:

...

On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, Black Unicorn wrote to Dimitri:

...

If you don't watch it I'll have a pair of my staff represent [Ray] free of charge.

Now THAT would be a community service.

Why don't you use the funds pledges for my defunct trip to California for Ray's lithium bill.

Suggesting that a person is on a psychoactive mediciation with the purpose of harming that persons image or character is likely actionable.

I'd be careful if I were you. If said individual ever manages to substantiate damages you've got an interesting time ahead of you.

Well as much as it pains me to take Dimitri's side I doubt that any damages can be proved by his statements on this list. My reasoning for this opinion is as follows: A. Dimitri is a nut, kook, ...ect. Definitely suffering from dimished capacity. B. Everyone on the list is aware of point A. C. So with A & B true when Dimitri makes his nutty statements they are taken by the list as just that, nutty statements. Under the above I find it hard to see any real damage caused by Dimitri's statements. Granted Dimitri is an anoying pest, I don't think that a lawsuite will do anything to slow him down as I don't see one as winable. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!! Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of PGPMR2 - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts Get Work Place Shell for Windows!! PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info ----------------------------------------------------------- *MR/2 ICE: Have you crashed your Windows today?

Ray Arachelian wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

...

Jews, and anyone else non-Armenian. It's somewhat surprising to see such stereotypical "old-country" behavior in an alleged Californian.

...

And I don't see any evidence that Timmy or Ray are "crypto people".

That's because you're not a crypto person and have no clue as to who are. I'm not about to sit here and trumpet the things I've done for crypto. Neither will Tim.

He is a crypto person. Look up his dissertation about collective encryption. - Igor.