How many people killed by there own governments (Was: Re: a retort + a comment + a question = [RANT])
With regard to b), governments--primarily through the use of their militaries--have killed, by some counts 170,000,000, men, women and children in this century alone. Hardly the guardians of freedom, in my opinion.
Do you have a breakdown of that number? I'm working on one of my thought experiments and am looking for the appropriate stats: o THUGS V. GOVS (during times of "modern" govts. 1800+) Deaths by Govts. on "own people" US Civil War x M US Native Americans Hitler: Jews 6 M Hitler: Others 6 M Stalin: 30 M China: Cult Rev x M France: Rev x M Deaths by Thugs Murders in whole world ^^^ See to be valid, I think I'd have to including thugs all over the world (since I use genocides all over the world) but if I had the death/person US figure, I could multiply that by the whole world and have a upper bound (conservative) since US has a partcularly large amount of murderes. _______________________ Regards, In every man's heart there is a secret nerve that answers to the vibrations of beauty. -Christopher Morley Joseph Reagle http://rpcp.mit.edu/~reagle/home.html reagle@mit.edu E0 D5 B2 05 B6 12 DA 65 BE 4D E3 C1 6A 66 25 4E
Joseph M. Reagle Jr. wrote:
With regard to b), governments--primarily through the use of their militaries--have killed, by some counts 170,000,000, men, women and children in this century alone. Hardly the guardians of freedom, in my opinion.
Do you have a breakdown of that number? I'm working on one of my thought experiments and am looking for the appropriate stats:
[snip]
Deaths by Govts. on "own people"
US Civil War x M
As a war, not genocide per se, but you could include as many as 100 million Africans killed in the slave trade, as long as the U.S. Park Police don't get dibs on verifying the official count. You might also include a large number of Chinese "laborers" in the 1800's.
US Native Americans
When I was in school in the 1950's and 1960's, the schools said there were no more than 3 million N.A.'s here circa 1600 or so. The official count remains controversial. BTW, since Columbus, the Conquistadores, et al gutted much of Central and South America, include them too.
Hitler: Jews 6 M Hitler: Others 6 M
I wouldn't even bother with these two. The numbers are not that reliable, the topic is still way too hot for open research even today, and besides, all sides killed probably 100 million or better in WW2, most of them from purely terrorist bombing. The significance of the "Holocaust" should not have been co-opted for commercial purposes as it has, but as they say, wishing don't make it so.
Stalin: 30 M
30 million is the "low" count, probably includes "hard" purges and identifiable political prisoners and very close associates, and perhaps some family members. Total unjustifiable non-war homicides on the part of the Stalin government (while Stalin in charge) may be 65 million or thereabouts.
China: Cult Rev x M
Similar comments as above - unjustifiable homicides on the behest of the Mao government (while Mao in charge) should be about 65 million.
France: Rev x M
Don't know. Comment: The Guiness World Records were at one time or another a source for some of this info, as was their original sources. Do expect to see some disinformation thrown into the "real" documents.
Dale Thorn wrote:
Joseph M. Reagle Jr. wrote:
Do you have a breakdown of that number? I'm working on one of my thought experiments and am looking for the appropriate stats:
[snip]
Deaths by Govts. on "own people"
US Civil War x M
I believe x is around 2, but it's a rather tortured argument to call that "government killing its own people." You had at least two governments going at it.
As a war, not genocide per se, but you could include as many as 100 million Africans killed in the slave trade, as long as the U.S. Park Police don't get dibs on verifying the official count.
I've heard Farrakhan claim 500 million, but 100 million due to slavery and related colonialism seems credible. I also would not call this "governments killing their own people." For the most part, it was private enterprise. Slave traders were not exactly the cream of the intellectual elite.
You might also include a large number of Chinese "laborers" in the 1800's.
The only conceivable connection to "governments killing their own people" I can think of is that railroad tycoon Leland Stanford was also a Senator at one point.
US Native Americans
When I was in school in the 1950's and 1960's, the schools said there were no more than 3 million N.A.'s here circa 1600 or so. The official count remains controversial. BTW, since Columbus, the Conquistadores, et al gutted much of Central and South America, include them too.
I'd have to ask John Morris on that.
Hitler: Jews 6 M Hitler: Others 6 M
I wouldn't even bother with these two. The numbers are not that reliable, the topic is still way too hot for open research even today, and besides, all sides killed probably 100 million or better in WW2, most of them from purely terrorist bombing. The significance of the "Holocaust" should not have been co-opted for commercial purposes as it has, but as they say, wishing don't make it so.
My. What a charmer you are. Please share these insights with the alt.revisionism crowd at your earliest convenience.
Stalin: 30 M
30 million is the "low" count, probably includes "hard" purges and identifiable political prisoners and very close associates, and perhaps some family members. Total unjustifiable non-war homicides on the part of the Stalin government (while Stalin in charge) may be 65 million or thereabouts.
The 30 million figure comes from Robert Conquest, who worked for the British government writing anti-Soviet propaganda during and after the war. Nobody has ever accused him of underestimating Soviet atrocities. But playing rhetorical games with numbers of this magnitude is unseemly. I'll leave that to you guys. Suffice to say that Stalin was a monster, and Lenin was the same; there are scans of execution orders in Stalin's and Lenin's handwriting at http://sunsite.unc.edu/expo/soviet.exhibit/collect.html
China: Cult Rev x M
Similar comments as above - unjustifiable homicides on the behest of the Mao government (while Mao in charge) should be about 65 million.
Actually, the Cultural Revolution mostly enslaved people, rather than killing them. To get to 65 million you'd have to include the revolutionary and collectivization periods.
Comment: The Guiness World Records were at one time or another a source for some of this info, as was their original sources. Do expect to see some disinformation thrown into the "real" documents.
Right. The Conspiracy touches everything. Even that authoritative historical journal the Guiness Book of Records. -rich
participants (3)
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Dale Thorn -
Joseph M. Reagle Jr. -
Rich Graves