Re: Warrentlesss SEarches
My comments are in the brackets -< >-. Before I start commenting, however, I would like to take this opportunity to once again say I DON'T AGREE WITH THESE SEARCHES!!!!! Many of you have taken that to be my tone, and that's not right. I was just expressing the opinion that I think that since all the other choices they have are blocked, and the residents don't seem to mind, then it's the right solution FOR NOW. I'm not trying to say that this should become policy, I'm just saying it's the only way that things could be done (at least from what I know of the situation). I don't profess to be an expert on this whole mess, I was just expressing my opinions. They are mine. Not yours. If you don't like them, either acknowledge that you don't agree with mine politely and civilly or just shut up. I have _NO_ time or tolerance for people who think that they are right just because they have such-and-such opinion about something. If you can't take the time to see both sides of the story, don't take the time to comment on just one side. Opinions are to be shared. If you don't like mine, then just don't read it. This is not aimed at anyone in particular, I'm just saying something that I feel (my god, another opinion!). -------------- From: dwomack@runner.jpl.utsa.edu (David L Womack) Subject: Re: Warrentlesss SEarches To: samman@CS.YALE.EDU Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 17:09:52 -0500 (CDT) Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Think about it. The cops are out-gunned and out-manned. What would you of coming up with an alternative.
[snip]
Maybe if you spent a little time thinking about what it's like to live in a place like this, you might shut up about the cops not doing their jobs.
Ok, Let me respond
1)I live in this kind of neighborhood at home when I'm not at school. That's right, I live in West Oakland, California. I was born and raised in the inner city. Don't tell me how these places are, don't tell me how they're run, don't tell me how dangerous they are. I've lived it. Have you? All you know is what you see on the news, on the television shows, and what is portrayed in mass media. [excellent points all]
-<Indeed these are excellent points. However, many people get their information from the mass media. I also go to school in new haven, so I have the same sources for information that you do. I am more than willing to admit that most of my info is from what I se and read in the papers and on the news. But at least I make the effort to stay informed. Also, you say that you "live in this kind of neighborhood at home." That's at home. You are here in New Haven. And it's only like CHA. You don't live there so don't expect me to think that you are right just because you live in an area that is similar. Unless you have actually _lived_ in Cabrini Green, I will take your thoughts with a grain of salt.>-
2)I know the value of a gun in this environment. I know how many times our home has been kept safe because my father has been willing to wield a gun against either intruders or against 'undersireable' characters coming around(read drug dealers, crack heads, you name it). Our part of the block has a reputation for not being somewhere for these pepole to hang out because my father and our neighbors have taken a stand against such scum.
[Bravo! Would that more people took personal responsibility!] -<I didn't say that you didn't. And I too applaud the neighborhood responsibility. There is always safety in numbers, be they people or a cypher. But I wasn't saying how important these guns are except that the gangs have a hell of a lot more than the cops do.>-
3)Not everyone who lives in these neighborhoods is bad simply as a result of
[snip...with regret] -<I never said the people who live in these neighborhoods are bad. I also never implyed it. I was only talking about the gangs. Never mentioned where they get their members, never mentioned where they get their guns, or drugs, or whatever. I was only saying how the people in the CHA buildings were fed up with the bs that was going on and decided to do something about it.>-
4)My family has not broken any law simply by trying to protect ourselves. There is no way in hell that the police can be everywhere at once, even if they are as efficient as you in the 'burbs seem to think they are, keeping out and harassing all the minorties that come your way. Until they get there, the only way we can protect ourselves is with our guns. We havne't broken any laws, we're not the ones who have severed our contract with society by choosing to live outside of it, its not us, its the people who prey upon us in our homes and in our schools, and it is not us who should lose our rights, but them. By simply lumping us in with them by sheer virtue of where we live and how much we earn is not only sheer folly but is also classist.
[And, even in the finest 'burbs, the police cannot be everywhere! Indeed, if you study police doctrine, it very clearly states that police and DETER crime, they can APPREHEND criminals, but they cannot PREVENT crime. Even a 5 minute response time will not solve the problem. Indeed, a 1 minute response would not...because someone must call them first! Still more significantly, the criminals are not stupid. They go where the money is...and if it is easier to steal Rolex's and 'Benzs in Suburbia...guess where they'll go? The city manager (!) here in San Antonio found this out when he was robbed in the driveway of his house. <no, he doesn't live in the inner city. >] -<I never said the cops could be everywhere at once. I only said that the cops were outgunned and outmanned. You were the one who started on about that. And don't assume that I'm from the burbs. To tell the truth, I am. But what if you had been wrong? I knew that I had life different than others the whole time I was growing up. I like to beleive that I give others a chance to prove themselves no matter who they are because I know that my life and education has been different. Just because I grew up in a 'burb doesn't mean that I'm an elitest jerk-off. Remember what they say about assuming things....>-
5)Yes we worry about the rights of the accused. I do. I've been arrested and harassed when the only crime that I committed was being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and not having the right skin color. Yes, I worry about those rights, because for me, it might be that one day, that it is I who is on trial, it is I whose rights are being questioned, and it is I who wants my day in court, and unless we protect the rights of the accused, even if they don't look like us, it reaps a beneficial result to society as a whole. Thomas More in the movie _Man for All Seasons_ makes an excellent point when he asks young Will, if he would cut down all the laws in England to catch the devil. When Will responds in the affirmative, More asks him, "And what would you do when the winds rage about you?"
[Elegant! My apologies for the bandwidth, but this quote needs to be repeated daily by the administration <and every citizen too>] -<You seem to want to turn this into a discussion about race and class. I never started in on this, and am going to leave the whole thing about black/white and upper class/middle or lower class alone. I refuse to touch it.>-
You see, if you don't protect the rights of the accused today, there might come a day when you're in their shoes and you'll wish that you still had those rights--remember the 5th amendment? The 4th's prohibitions against unreasonable seach and siezures? What about the 14th's due process clause? It is the rule of law, not of decree that makes this nation great, and there's no way in hell, I'm going to sit idly by and watch this nation become an autocracy simply because some people in suburbia decided that it would be easier to do away with the rights of the accused in their racist, xenophobic fears.
Any comments? Ben.
[I'm as xenophobic as the next guy ;-), but I don't think the problem is necessarily suburbia; rather, it often seems that people in general, and irregardless of socioeconomic status, are eagerly discarding rights in order to escape personal involvement. Merely voting is (seemingly) too tedious; and anything more demanding is (again, seemingly) completely out of the question. Who was it who said "He who would trade a little liberty for a little security deserves neither"?] -<Allright, I don't want to say it again, but I have to. I am not for these searches, I only said that they seem like the right thing for the CHA police to do considering their circumstances. Last time I checked, this country was a democracy. The guy who started the searches had to get permission from the people living in the apartment to start the searches. If most of the people in the building thought it was a good idea, then the majority can't be wrong, right? I know the Bill of Rights also, and I'm not saying they should abandon it. But until they can come up with something to deal with these gangs, I think that the searches are appropriate. Adam Gerstein
-<Allright, I don't want to say it again, but I have to. I am not for these searches, I only said that they seem like the right thing for the CHA police to do considering their circumstances. Last time I checked, this country was a democracy. The guy who started the searches had to get permission from
On Sun, 24 Apr 1994 GERSTEIN@SCSUD.CTSTATEU.EDU wrote: the
people living in the apartment to start the searches. If most of the people in the building thought it was a good idea, then the majority can't be wrong, right? I know the Bill of Rights also, and I'm not saying they should abandon it. But until they can come up with something to deal with these gangs, I think that the searches are appropriate.
Adam Gerstein
So if a majority of your neighbors voted to have you executed and your property divided among them, then that would be OK by you, yes? After all, you say that "the majority can't be wrong". The problem here, as illustrated by the quote from 'A Man for All Seasons' is that rights must be maintained and enforced *especially* when it is difficult to do so. If the government is allowed to violate rights "because they have no other option", then such violation becomes routine, and soon no right exists. It's rather like being pregnant.
1)I live in this kind of neighborhood at home when I'm not at school. That's right, I live in West Oakland, California. I was born and raised in the inner city. Don't tell me how these places are, don't tell me how they're run, don't tell me how dangerous they are. I've lived it. Have you? All you know is what you see on the news, on the television shows, and what is portrayed in mass media. [excellent points all]
-<Indeed these are excellent points. However, many people get their information from the mass media. I also go to school in new haven, so I have the same sources for information that you do. I am more than willing to admit that most of my info is from what I se and read in the papers and on the news. But at least I make the effort to stay informed. Also, you say that you "live in this kind of neighborhood at home." That's at home. You are here in New Haven. And it's only like CHA. You don't live there so don't expect me to think that you are right just because you live in an area that is similar. Unless you have actually _lived_ in Cabrini Green, I will take your thoughts with a grain of salt.>-
Take my comments any way you want. I really don't care. However, I went to an inner city high school, no not in New Haven, but on the other side of the country, <see above> and as such I base my information on how and where I grew up for the past 18 years of my life before I came to Yale. The section of New HAven where Yale is, honestly, is a sheltered environ, that I will grant, and redily acknowledge it. However, if you came to visit my home in Oakland, you'd see that across the street are the Acorn Projects(which are public, low income housing) as well as down the street is the police station. I've gone to a friend's house to hang out only to have our reveries disturbed by gangs shooting each other up outside. No, unless you grew up most of your life in the inner city, unless you went to school and saw your buddies get blown away because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, unless you've attended the funerals of friends who died senselessly can you tell me that you have the same sources of information that I do. My information I gather empirically--with my own eyes. Can you say the same? How long have you lived in New Haven? New Haven is nothing let me tell you. There's poverty here, there's needless suffering, but taking away these people's basic diginity and civil rights, by searching them for somehitng that isn't contraband is not going to do anything to get these people out of the hole they're in. Rather, its going to make them more resentful and more angry at what they percieve to be a government that is unresponsive to their needs. Remember, they are perfectly justified in feeling disenfranchised, because honestly they are.
2)I know the value of a gun in this environment. I know how many times our home has been kept safe because my father has been willing to wield a gun against either intruders or against 'undersireable' characters coming around(read drug dealers, crack heads, you name it). Our part of the block has a reputation for not being somewhere for these pepole to hang out because my father and our neighbors have taken a stand against such scum.
[Bravo! Would that more people took personal responsibility!]
-<I didn't say that you didn't. And I too applaud the neighborhood responsibility. There is always safety in numbers, be they people or a cypher. But I wasn't saying how important these guns are except that the gangs have a hell of a lot more than the cops do.>-
So taking away normal, law abiding citizen's guns that they use to protect themselves is going to cut down on the amount that the gangs have? Hardly. Ever walk down the street and been offered a gun? I have. I didn't take it, never know what condition its in, or where its been. :)
3)Not everyone who lives in these neighborhoods is bad simply as a result of
[snip...with regret]
-<I never said the people who live in these neighborhoods are bad. I also never implyed it. I was only talking about the gangs. Never mentioned where they get their members, never mentioned where they get their guns, or drugs, or whatever. I was only saying how the people in the CHA buildings were fed up with the bs that was going on and decided to do something about it.>-
And they should. But they shouldn't be forced to give up their civil rights to be able to 'do something about it.' No you're right. You never did MENTION that everyone in these neighborhoods are bad, but by blanektly abrogating EVERYONE'S rights there's a tacit assumption there that someone did something wrong. We take away the rights of convicted felons--not the innocent people who happen because of unfortunate circumstances to have the government as a landlord, there less of a public outrage. The American public feels unattached and holds in no specific esteem us inhabitants of the inner city. Thus we get things like the searches that are the topic of discussion. And this is what frightens me the most. I can picture a scenario when middle white America decides that what the inner cities need is a little law and order, like the National Guard or the Army to camp out. Sure this will reduce crime, but it'll also curtail civil liberties.
-<You seem to want to turn this into a discussion about race and class. I never started in on this, and am going to leave the whole thing about black/white and upper class/middle or lower class alone. I refuse to touch it.>-
Yes, but I am. I admit it. I see that there is an inherent prejudice here. Allow me to pose a scenario: Beverly Hills is ravaged by a terrible crime wave. Dope dealers are hanging out on every block. People are dealing drugs out of homes and every so often it gets out of hand and people are shot. Do you think that they will start abrogating these people's rights by subjecting them to house-to-house searches for something that has yet to be ruled illegal? I personally doubt it. And I doubt it because these people have more political clout, because of the enormous hue and cry that would erupt if such acts were to take place. However, if we subject people(yes people, just like the ones on Rodeo Dr.) that happen because of an accident of economics to have the government as their land lord to these unreasonable searches, then there is more of a mentalitiy of 'Good for them. It's working' But it ISN'T! You know what will work? Community groups that go down to the gun range. That arm citizens. That teach them to fire guns. That licence them to carry concealed weapons. You think the dope dealers are gonna push, if they know that the parents of their targets are armed and pissed off? No! I'm not advocating vigilantism, but there is much to be said for the ability of people to arm themselves and protect themselves, their families, and their possessions from any interloper--the same rights that Jefferson speaks of, "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."
I know the Bill of Rights also, and I'm not saying they should abandon it. But until they can come up with something to deal with these gangs, I think that the searches are appropriate.
Good...You don't think they should abandon the BoR, but you think that its okay to sign away a few rights at a time to ensure their safety? One day when this government is everyhwere, when they can read your mind, when they know what you're doing, will you be totally secure. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance, and with liberty comes personal responsibility. It is easier to sign away your rights and have someone promise to protect you, but its like a tiger that you get ride on--if you get off, you'll get eaten, so you're forced to go wherever it goes. The first burden of personal responsibility begins with the individual. There's no one that can help you do that, this is something that you have to do. And if you're willing to protect yourself, then there's no one on this earth that can take that away from you without losing some of his blood in the process. Ben. ASIDE: I often wonder why people don't want us in the inner city to have guns. I wonder if its just a bit of racism that fears the empowerment of people with guns, kinda like there are some elements of the political system that are afraid to give women guns. Are they afraid that with the great equalizer, that the underclasses will one day come to their senses and realize how they've gotten shafted and decide to take out their rage? Maybe they fear what sort of destruction will result as in the Watts and recent King riots, if the rioters were armed. The roots of social unrest in the inner city has nothing to do with crime, and everything to do with economics. You give these people jobs, you give them traning, and you give them a stake in society, and you'll see how far they'll go to defend you. Its because of this frustration, of the lack of vehicles for social mobility that the inner city is the way it is. I can't tell you how intoxicating the lure of dealing drugs is. The power to do what you want, to get any woman you want, to drive any car you want, all for just a little bit of work. Right now they're frustrated, and they don't believe they're anything in this society. You see, these high and lofty ideals that are embodied in the BoR and the Declaration mean nothing. Ever been stopped and given the third degree for simply being in the wrong neighborhood? The exchange when something like: Cop: "What are you doing here?" Me: "Driving" Cop: "Where are you going?" Me: "To visit a friend." Cop: "What's the address?" Me "I didn't realize that we had a pass law in effect. Did I take a wrong turn and end up in Pretoria?" Cop: "Get out of the car." I don't believe that I've gotten as fair of a shake when it comes to authority as compared to many people in the burbs, that's why I'm skeptical of any such wonderful ideas to take away rights from the underclass. End Aside.
I'm only going to take a small part of the post. Please don't hurl rocks at me... <My computer told me that Llywelyn said:> > ASIDE: I often wonder why people don't want us in the inner city to have > guns. I wonder if its just a bit of racism that fears the empowerment of > people with guns, ... 1. Why are all "inner city" residents black? In Louisville, KY where I grew up the "inner city" was a neighborhood called Portland and it had only white trash there. You know, the kind that would shoot you if you looked at them wrong. There was a portion of the "slums" that was occupied by mostly blacks, but the real problems came from the whites. (By the way, I can call em white trash cuz I'm white and they are trash. ) 2. I'm afraid of any drugged person having a gun. I'm afraid of any resentful person, hateful person, nothing-to-live-for person, etc. having a gun... not a city area, but a mentality... a mentality that can be found in any neighborhood. 3. My philosophy: I'm sorry my great great grand daddy did something bad to your great great grand daddy, but don't blame me for it and don't expect me to "make up" for it, cuz I'm neither responsible nor able to make up for something that happened that long ago with different people involved. > Maybe they fear what sort of destruction will result as in the Watts and > recent King riots, if the rioters were armed. Uhem, they were armed... just like any group in America, some had guns, some had bricks, some had fists, some stayed home. > the BoR and the Declaration mean nothing. Ever been stopped and given > the third degree for simply being in the wrong neighborhood? The > exchange when something like: > > Cop: "What are you doing here?" > Me: "Driving" > Cop: "Where are you going?" > Me: "To visit a friend." > Cop: "What's the address?" > Me "I didn't realize that we had a pass law in effect. Did I take a wrong > turn and end up in Pretoria?" > Cop: "Get out of the car." Nope, I've had better sense than to dis the cops when I get stopped. They are in authority and if you don't recognize that then they will help you "see the light". Sounds like you had a smart attitude and the cop decided to show you who had the right end of the gun. > Now, if you haven't already deleted this due to it's inappropriateness I'd like to say : 1. I'm sorry to post it here. It is my hopes that I've stated what many identify with at least in part so it need not be followed up here again. 2. Barring a momentary lapse of reason I will not respond in public to any more messages in this thread. 3. Where is the crypto angle and how did it get so off-track? Truly folks, I hope this ends and apologize. As I said, I hope I came close enough to J.Random Poster's feelings that he will let it die here and not feel a need to reply further. I can be contacted via private email if anyone wishes to pursue this with me further. jims@mpgn.com Take care everyone! -- Tantalus Inc. Bringing people together Jim Sewell-KD4CKQ 2407 N. Roosevelt Blvd. to have a little fun. Internet: jims@mpgn.com Key West, FL 33041 CIS: 71061,1027 (305) 293-8100 "We keep coding and coding and coding..."
> <My computer told me that Llywelyn said:> > > ASIDE: I often wonder why people don't want us in the inner city to have > > guns. I wonder if its just a bit of racism that fears the empowerment of > > people with guns, ... > 1. Why are all "inner city" residents black? In Louisville, KY where I > grew up the "inner city" was a neighborhood called Portland and it > had only white trash there. You know, the kind that would shoot you Cause all the inner city residents I grew up with, went to school with, hung out with, and shot hoop with were black. My fault, but my response was tinged by my own experiences. > 2. I'm afraid of any drugged person having a gun. I'm afraid of any > resentful person, hateful person, nothing-to-live-for person, etc. > having a gun... not a city area, but a mentality... a mentality > that can be found in any neighborhood. So am I. But he's going to have that gun whether I like it or not. The question that arises in response is, "Can I protect myself against this drugged/hateful/nothing-to-live-for person?" And if the answer is yes, then I must ask myself how. I personally don't like the odds of hand-to-hand combat versus a gun, I like to even the odds. > 3. My philosophy: I'm sorry my great great grand daddy did something > bad to your great great grand daddy, but don't blame me for it and > don't expect me to "make up" for it, cuz I'm neither responsible > nor able to make up for something that happened that long ago with > different people involved. Very good. That's what America is about. Clean starts. You shouldn't have to pay for it, but everyone should help to chip in, because if everyone doesn't then there will be a big disaster later donw the road that is even less appealing. It seems that now a lot of rage and frustration is coming out through the only safety valve available, and that stopgap measures will no longer be sufficient. I'm just suggesting that maybe it may be in everyone's best interest to 'make up' for it now, because the social pressures that will one day be exerted may not be something that you want to see when the pot finally boils over. Plus, and this is personal, I'm for improving the lot of as many people as possible. > > the BoR and the Declaration mean nothing. Ever been stopped and given > > the third degree for simply being in the wrong neighborhood? The > > exchange when something like: > > > > Cop: "What are you doing here?" > > Me: "Driving" > > Cop: "Where are you going?" > > Me: "To visit a friend." > > Cop: "What's the address?" > > Me "I didn't realize that we had a pass law in effect. Did I take a wrong > > turn and end up in Pretoria?" > > Cop: "Get out of the car." > > Nope, I've had better sense than to dis the cops when I get stopped. > They are in authority and if you don't recognize that then they > will help you "see the light". Sounds like you had a smart attitude > and the cop decided to show you who had the right end of the gun. This is probably true. <grin> Ah well, I've always had a problem blindly following authroity and not challenging it as my parents will be the first to tell you. > 3. Where is the crypto angle and how did it get so off-track? The crypto angle is closely tied into the angle of unreasonable search and seizures. You see, the unreasonable search and seizure of our words, our thoughts, indeed the very things that a democracy is founded upon--ideas is what crypto is attempting to protect. That in order to protect these rights, and have them apply to crypto, we have to have them apply in as many places as possible, in as many schemas as possible. I question whether if a government will not give us security in our own homes, how they can give us our privacy in as elusive of a concept to the average American as cyberspace. This is the crypto angle. In order to fight for crypto, we have to fight for all the other rights because privacy is assumed and implied as the culmination of the entire BoR<Unicorn give me some help here, or correct me> because isn't privacy the vehicle and the end of the rights enumerated in the BoR? We can't have privacy without being able to protect it<2nd> and that privacy isn't worth much unless the government is prohibited from invading it <4th and 5th Amendments>, etc. > Truly folks, I hope this ends and apologize. As I said, I hope I > came close enough to J.Random Poster's feelings that he will let it > die here and not feel a need to reply further. I can be contacted > via private email if anyone wishes to pursue this with me further. Very well. Contacy me via private e-mail. I can't promise quick responses as its finals here in the Elm city, but I wanted to point out the points above, especially in the last 2 paragraphs. Ben.
Jim Sewell writes: > I'm only going to take a small part of the post. Please don't hurl rocks > at me... > > <My computer told me that Llywelyn said:> > > ASIDE: I often wonder why people don't want us in the inner city to have > > guns. I wonder if its just a bit of racism that fears the empowerment of > > people with guns, ... > 1. Why are all "inner city" residents black? In Louisville, KY where I ...much stuff elided... I haven't been participating in this thread, as I have no energy for standard old statist vs. libertarian and ban guns vs. Second Amendment arguments. And I'm not going to start participating now. Why I'm writing is to say I won't "have patience" (the title of Jim's thread here) with someone who 40 minutes earlier (10:29 pm, EDT) was lecturing us all on how inappropriate this thread is and how we all ought to "take it to e-mail." I've generally noticed here (and throughout the Net, possibly throughout the Real World) there are folks who lecture about something being inappropriate---and then can't contain themselves and have to add more crap. Often the complainers about some discussion being "off-topic" are themselves the worst offenders in terms of not knowing when to let an argument just drop. (No offense to my friends for whom this applies.) Topics ebb and flow on this list, and it seems to me that the issues surrounding the door-to-door searches of a housing project have at least _some_ relevance to cryptography and the issues we usually talk about. I tend to agree, though, that the recent discussions are mostly just personal rants. Far be it from me, though, to urge that a topic no longer be discussed. And especially if less than an hour later I feel the urgent need to write even more stuff on the topic. Jeesh. --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."
Last time I checked, this country was a democracy. The guy who started the searches had to get permission from the people living in the apartment to start the searches. If most of the people in the building thought it was a good idea, then the majority can't be wrong, right?
Adam Gerstein
Didn't Pontius Pilate have a similar argument? +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | james hicks | Give me your tired, your poor, | | <sonny@netcom.com> | your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, | | ...can you hear | Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.| | the music?... | I lift my lamp beside the golden door! | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
participants (6)
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GERSTEIN＠SCSUD.CTSTATEU.EDU -
Jim Sewell - KD4CKQ -
Llywelyn -
Paul Schauble -
sonny＠netcom.com -
tcmay＠netcom.com