Re: We need more surveillance--a morality play about terrorism
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Tim May <tcmay@got.net> wrote:
I've been watching an HBO movie, "Path to Paradise," about the bombing of the World Trade Center in February 1993. It's quite well-done, as most HBO movies of this sort are.
Maybe I'll get a TV one of these days. Nah.
* "You mean Islamic radicals are free to preach their message of hate and violence? Unbelievable!" (This is a paraphrase...there were several such opinions expressed, where FBI managers express outrage that such things are permitted in the U.S.)
I can't even imagine anyone in the FBI saying anything like that. In the National Security (tm) establishment and local police forces, yes, but the FBI is pretty professional, and has heard of the First Amendment. In this case, though, there was the additional issue of Rachman being an illegal alien. (I'm not a big fan of border controls of any kind, but I do consider political hostility to the US to be a legitimate reason for a state to bar someone from entry and residence. Bleeding hearts aside, poverty and lack of language and job skills are also legitimate reasons to bar people at the golden door.) It's fashionable to romanticize the enemy as big national or supranational thugs, but in reality the corrupt local cop is the bigger civil liberties threat to most normal people. On the "other side": Look, more people died from car accidents in the last 12 days than died in the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building, and far fewer still (or was it nobody?) died in the World Trade Center. By the numbers, terrorism just doesn't deserve the press coverage it gets. McVeigh would have done better if he'd started an automobile factory. It worked for Henry Ford; how many copies of The International Jew and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion did he print with the money he made, and how long did respectable antisemitism delay the US entry into WWII? Food for thought. If you really want to influence people over the long term, make money, not bombs. William Pierce is on the wrong track.
* The niceties of getting wiretap orders were treated as ways to coddle criminals.
This does happen, and bugs me (so to speak).
--Tim May, who's sorry he missed the display of firepower at the physical meeting today
One of these days I'll make it to the firing range. You also missed a revealing story over dinner, which probably meant something different to me than the storyteller intended, but there it is. A guy on the way to the shooting range is pulled over for speeding. The cop notices the guns, orders him out of the car, and asks where he's going. He answers, "Let me explain the way I think this country works. I am going wherever I damn well please." So the cop gives him a speeding ticket, and he continues on his way. Now tell me, is this evidence that we're living in a police state? Of course it probably helped that the guy was white, and probably driving a "decent" car, and carrying "decent" guns and not some "Saturday Night Special." But still, I don't see the totalitarianism. While it wasn't covered in human rights school, I don't think the FBI should sit idly by and let terrorists sponsored by the government of Iran blow people up, either. And so they didn't sit idly by. They waited for probable cause. And lost one. Oops. A few random bombings seems a reasonable price to pay for all our freedoms, though, especially since it probably couldn't have been prevented in the first place. But by all means, keep the paranoia coming. That's what keeps this country more or less free. Far better to have frogs hopping wild and free (as God designed them) than sitting in the pot talking about how nice and warm the water is. Just don't lose it so badly that you start endorsing the bombing of the World Trade Center and the Murrah Federal Building, please. - -rich http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQBVAwUBM6SCkJNcNyVVy0jxAQFWvAH/U8KiLVrrtq/NNSOzJWGPJuP2n7wM/6oU KvymiZkTRqMS+5WLY5WTomnVCgKcc0IQ9eMDFO0UgJf5vI28YE2VtQ== =EP88 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
At 05:02 PM 6/15/97 -0700, Rich Graves wrote:
A guy on the way to the shooting range is pulled over for speeding. The cop notices the guns, orders him out of the car, and asks where he's going. He answers, "Let me explain the way I think this country works. I am going wherever I damn well please." So the cop gives him a speeding ticket, and he continues on his way.
Now tell me, is this evidence that we're living in a police state?
Of course it probably helped that the guy was white, and probably driving a "decent" car, and carrying "decent" guns and not some "Saturday Night Special."
The guy being white and educated may well have convinced the cop to not make a fuzz. My local newspaper recently ran an article about a few Hispanic looking folks who had some photographs of themselves holding guns in their hands developed at the supermarket. Before they even picked up the prints, the clerk had called the cops which in turn raided the unfortunate gun owners. It turned out that the Hispanics owned the firearms legally. --Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred. Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm
On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
At 05:02 PM 6/15/97 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: [...]
Of course it probably helped that the guy was white, and probably driving a "decent" car, and carrying "decent" guns and not some "Saturday Night Special."
The guy being white and educated may well have convinced the cop to not make a fuzz. My local newspaper recently ran an article about a few Hispanic looking folks who had some photographs of themselves holding guns in their hands developed at the supermarket. Before they even picked up the prints, the clerk had called the cops which in turn raided the unfortunate gun owners.
It turned out that the Hispanics owned the firearms legally.
I always knew you had a bleeding-heard liberal inside, just struggling to come out. Yes, for some people, this is a police state. But the threat is not (just) the FBI/CIA/ATF/NSA; it's us. It's the people developing photos at the supermarket who aren't comfortable with Hispanics and "ebonites" having guns, and believe the police or TLAs should put a stop to it. Technical capabilities don't oppress people; people do. -rich http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <Pine.GUL.3.95.970616215033.19356A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, on 06/16/97 at 10:04 PM, Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> said:
On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
At 05:02 PM 6/15/97 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: [...]
Of course it probably helped that the guy was white, and probably driving a "decent" car, and carrying "decent" guns and not some "Saturday Night Special."
The guy being white and educated may well have convinced the cop to not make a fuzz. My local newspaper recently ran an article about a few Hispanic looking folks who had some photographs of themselves holding guns in their hands developed at the supermarket. Before they even picked up the prints, the clerk had called the cops which in turn raided the unfortunate gun owners.
It turned out that the Hispanics owned the firearms legally.
I always knew you had a bleeding-heard liberal inside, just struggling to come out.
Yes, for some people, this is a police state. But the threat is not (just) the FBI/CIA/ATF/NSA; it's us. It's the people developing photos at the supermarket who aren't comfortable with Hispanics and "ebonites" having guns, and believe the police or TLAs should put a stop to it. Technical capabilities don't oppress people; people do.
If it wasn't for the fact that we *are* living in a police state the opions of a supermarket clerk would not be relevant. If we were living in a Constutional democracy where the TLAs had to abide by the laws of the land then the gestapo would have never even though of raiding the Hispanic gun owners. - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html - --------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: cp850 Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000 iQCVAwUBM6Y4Ho9Co1n+aLhhAQGTpQP/RyQ85jyjKpTNMvT95rrQu63vKiGcig2I Cs1f5ffTFSdRUDQppMzQbjDffS1F7GlX4PlSWZItOwXz9EuWEc1ToIgJrSb1DbBb atir3ivJh/VCLfj76gs9W/JQL90LAAw3asUEI3Myptw3CZ61A+E+UaVV+IFu+xKc 8t+YJ+OOndc= =KJLr -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
In <Pine.GUL.3.95.970616215033.19356A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, on 06/16/97 at 10:04 PM, Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> said:
Yes, for some people, this is a police state. But the threat is not (just) the FBI/CIA/ATF/NSA; it's us. It's the people developing photos at the supermarket who aren't comfortable with Hispanics and "ebonites" having guns, and believe the police or TLAs should put a stop to it. Technical capabilities don't oppress people; people do.
If it wasn't for the fact that we *are* living in a police state the opions of a supermarket clerk would not be relevant.
If we were living in a Constutional democracy where the TLAs had to abide by the laws of the land then the gestapo would have never even though of raiding the Hispanic gun owners.
What Gestapo? Lucky Green didn't tell the whole story, but it was my impression he was talking about the local police or sheriff. They had local police and sheriffs lo those glorious days of freedom of the antebellum South, too. How else you expect people to protect their property? A man can't stay awake watching for looters 24 hours a day, or if he does, he's liable to start hallucinating and wasting ammunition. Gun control means being able to keep your eyes open and shoot straight. - -rich http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQBVAwUBM6Y+85NcNyVVy0jxAQGsIgH/d0y5HKDEcM/5XtNjcv4CiNs1lR6MhEfj +iNoPKrHDsLfQlNkLZblpl2HD7nBO0Ksbm9HVAuxgLz2lwl/d7oiwg== =sy/w -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <Pine.GUL.3.95.970617002359.19769C-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, on 06/17/97 at 12:39 AM, Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> said:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
In <Pine.GUL.3.95.970616215033.19356A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, on 06/16/97 at 10:04 PM, Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> said:
Yes, for some people, this is a police state. But the threat is not (just) the FBI/CIA/ATF/NSA; it's us. It's the people developing photos at the supermarket who aren't comfortable with Hispanics and "ebonites" having guns, and believe the police or TLAs should put a stop to it. Technical capabilities don't oppress people; people do.
If it wasn't for the fact that we *are* living in a police state the opions of a supermarket clerk would not be relevant.
If we were living in a Constutional democracy where the TLAs had to abide by the laws of the land then the gestapo would have never even though of raiding the Hispanic gun owners.
What Gestapo? Lucky Green didn't tell the whole story, but it was my impression he was talking about the local police or sheriff. They had local police and sheriffs lo those glorious days of freedom of the antebellum South, too. How else you expect people to protect their property? A man can't stay awake watching for looters 24 hours a day, or if he does, he's liable to start hallucinating and wasting ammunition. Gun control means being able to keep your eyes open and shoot straight.
Does it really matter if they are local thugs or federal?? Are they exempt from the Constitution because the county signs their paycheck rather than an agency in DC?? I highly doubt that the Hispanics envolved really cared which government the brown shirts were working for when their doors were kicked in. - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html - --------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: cp850 Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000 iQCVAwUBM6ZEXI9Co1n+aLhhAQF8LwQAqR41GxNkeRy6DVwNJP7sRVikRNoFFTeV FBdd5DRX6IM5oEe4QV1b/SxP1bwa7vAlpsOm8VsgmvMJRC4zHyJ62fqFzyhOuneM 3bBwEsdJjmhqoo8Sw1EbzQ9/AYAGL/iMGWHw3nKyzT+9lclAwoTWTTw9kvLdUd+o bOhbAcUWohA= =GHFW -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
participants (3)
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Lucky Green -
Rich Graves -
William H. Geiger III