Memme: Crypto=Bullet Proof Vests
I came up with this while on a bio break.... ITAR classifies crypto as munitions, but this is the same thing as telling someone who wishes to travel to a warring country that they may not buy a bullet proof vest, but they may buy an vest that will stop pebbles being thrown at them. This is equivalently reasoned that such vests could be used to rob banks and the theives could get away from the police - but how many bank theives have you known that were shot by the cops and not caught by other means? It believes that only the USA has bullet proof vests and it is a matter of national security that no one else have bullet proof vests. These aren't tactical weapons equivalent to 20MegaTon nukes, these are devices that help save lives. Meanwhile other countries have also created bullet proof vests, some that protect against high velocity bullets. We can understand that vest piercing bullets kill policemen and that they are reasonably outlawed, but if someone built a vest that would stop those we wouldn't be able to mail them to those fighting for democracy outside of the USA. In the case of crypto, crypto is a tool that saves your privacy. Why are we not allowed to have the ability to ship the tools needed to help protect privacy of say the students in China (for example) where any suspicion of disidence would be instantly punishable by death. For a country that is intent on making the world safe for democracy, we are sure doing a very bad job. Sure, a bullet proof vest can be used to protect a pornographer or a terrorist, but it will also save the lives of citizens, freedom fighters and children. How many parents who live in bad neighborhoods would object to their kids being able to wear bullet proof vests, could they afford them, while going to school? The recent bills thrown around in congress are attempting to do the equivalent of outlawing bullet proof vests, and only allowing pebble proof vests to be sold, or bullet proof vests that can be pierced by police. Would you want your kid to wear a vest that can be pierced by police fire? Maybe a stray bullet aimed at a drug dealer hitting your kid? Or maybe a criminal getting their hands on the same type of ammo and shooting your kid? We need our kids to wear Strong Bullet Proof vests! Next time they yell "But if it saves the life of one child" give them this. "But if strong crypto can save the life of one child freedomfighter, who are we to limit its use? Support strong crypto and protect the kids of the world!" (Preaching to the choire of course, but who knows maybe the crypto=bullet proof vest arguement will be useful to someone who can talk sense into the crypto clueless cognresscritters.) =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos============== .+.^.+.| Ray Arachelian |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see |./|\. ..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were |/\|/\ <--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run |\/|\/ ../|\..| "A toast to Odin, |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/. .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were.... |..... ======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================
Next time they yell "But if it saves the life of one child" give them
this. "But if strong crypto can save the life of one child freedomfighter, who are we to limit its use? Support strong crypto and protect the kids of the world!"
(Preaching to the choire of course, but who knows maybe the crypto=bullet proof vest arguement will be useful to someone who can talk sense into the crypto clueless cognresscritters.)
encryption protects my children from child molesters. my children communicate via a secure tunnel so it is impossible for pedophiles to hear what they are saying or talk to them. they also use digital signatures to distinguish trusted adults so they will never buy the " your mommy sent me to pick you up" lines.
On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote: /.../
The recent bills thrown around in congress are attempting to do the equivalent of outlawing bullet proof vests, and only allowing pebble proof vests to be sold, or bullet proof vests that can be pierced by police. Would you want your kid to wear a vest that can be pierced by police fire?
Actually, I believe that bullet proof vests are already illegal. I'm serious, check it out.
Careful with this argument! At 1:44 PM -0700 8/13/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
I came up with this while on a bio break....
ITAR classifies crypto as munitions, but this is the same thing as telling someone who wishes to travel to a warring country that they may not buy a bullet proof vest, but they may buy an vest that will stop pebbles being thrown at them. This is equivalently reasoned that such vests could be used to rob banks and the theives could get away from the police - but how many bank theives have you known that were shot by the cops and not caught by other means?
Better be careful with this analogy. In fact, armor of various sorts is clearly a defense item, and is often on the list of restricted items. For example, Chobham and reactive tank armor was strictly controlled. Now we may think crypto should be freely exportable, but comparing it to armor could backfire. Personally, I think Cypherpunks should concentrate on making crypto ubiquitous in the United States, and monkeywrench "by any means available" any plans to restrict in any way the use of strong crypto within the U.S. Let the rest of the world get crypto through the leaky sieve that is the U. S. border, or roll their own, or whatever. As for Netscape and Microsoft and RSADSI getting export approvals, I'll start worrying about their interests when they start sending me a monthly paycheck, or put me on retainer, or given me a few thousands shares as part of a stock option. How Cypherpunks got effectively hijacked or diverted into fretting about exports is a mystery to me.
The recent bills thrown around in congress are attempting to do the equivalent of outlawing bullet proof vests, and only allowing pebble proof vests to be sold, or bullet proof vests that can be pierced by police. Would you want your kid to wear a vest that can be pierced by police fire? Maybe a stray bullet aimed at a drug dealer hitting your kid? Or maybe a criminal getting their hands on the same type of ammo and shooting your kid? We need our kids to wear Strong Bullet Proof vests!
By the way, there are already laws in place limiting "cop killer bullets," and some restrictions are already in place for limiting body armor (the preferred name for "bullet proof vests"). "For law enforcement use only" is the label used. So I'd be careful with all of these munitions and armor analogies. The First Amendment arguments are much stronger and less ambiguous. --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Tim May wrote:
Careful with this argument!
Okay, so let's modify it to be domestic then and say "only cops can buy body armor" etc... instead.
Better be careful with this analogy. In fact, armor of various sorts is clearly a defense item, and is often on the list of restricted items. For example, Chobham and reactive tank armor was strictly controlled.
Personally, I think Cypherpunks should concentrate on making crypto ubiquitous in the United States, and monkeywrench "by any means available" any plans to restrict in any way the use of strong crypto within the U.S.
Welp, using such arguements whenever possible, whenver the media and the kongress will list will help monkeywrench domestic anti-crypto legislation, or GAK only legislation. This is still a valuable tool to use in addition to making it ubuquitous. :) Here's another project: if we can get enough $$$ to burn thousands of CD's burned with Crypto on them and then get Software ETC and Egghead, and Rat Shack and others to give them away as freebies the way that they give away Netcomm and Prodigy and AOL CD's, we could reach quite a few folks. I've done some of this a few years back at various PC and other Expos on floppies, but getting Win95 and Mac versions of PGP wrappers and stuff to fit on a floppy isn't feasable. :) What would be cool is if we could ship an EudoraLite with a freeeware PGP built (or some such), a crypto IRC client, an anonymous remailer client (like the mixmaster java applet) and other such "internet access tools" on this CD and tout it as Secure Internet access tools or some such. :) And if we can get a bunch of ISP's to allow us to use their client software, say Netcom and such (not that I want to give them money) it could be pretty useful for Joe Sixpack "I wanna get on the 'net thing"
By the way, there are already laws in place limiting "cop killer bullets," and some restrictions are already in place for limiting body armor (the preferred name for "bullet proof vests").
"For law enforcement use only" is the label used.
So I'd be careful with all of these munitions and armor analogies. The First Amendment arguments are much stronger and less ambiguous.
True, but when they scream "save the children" we can use the above and show that our own government forbids us to "save the kids" from bullets by making wearing of body armor forbidden. We can then say crypto=body armor and take it from there possibly getting both released. (That and three quarters will buy you a cup of coffe, but we have to try.) The arguement can be raised, why can't normal citizen units purchase bullet proof vests? If this isn't a clear cut hint that we've been living in a police state, what is? Cops sodomizing black men on the street with toilet plungers and beating the shit out of them? Gun laws? :) =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos============== .+.^.+.| Ray Arachelian |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see |./|\. ..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were |/\|/\ <--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run |\/|\/ ../|\..| "A toast to Odin, |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/. .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were.... |..... ======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================
participants (4)
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Lou Poppler -
Ray Arachelian -
sar -
Tim May