It seems that none of us are "pure enough" for Anonymous. In the real world, and in the world of crypto experts, programmers, and legal folks, people have real jobs. Sometimes with Microsoft, sometimes with AT&T, sometimes with the Justice Department. To exclude them from our discussions because they are not pure enough and have not done as Anonymous has (who may actually be working for anyone, of course), is self-defeating. By working for Microsfoft, Justice, or TPC, they can probably do more for "the cause" (in its many dimensions and facets) than some warez-junkie living with his parents can. Specifically, At 2:45 AM 9/10/95, Anonymous wrote:

wei dai patents algorithms - for microsoft!!!!. that should fucking help us a lot. whos he gonna sue first?

Wei Dai's work is impressive...I'm not surprised Microsoft hired him for the summer. Patents are a way of life. They may not always be, and different people have different views on them, but meaningless insults like this are a waste of our time.

according to sci.crypt mat blaze can prove that clipper has no back door. right. that sure helps us. david sternlights new hero.

If Anonymous believes this claim by Sternlight, he didn't read the rest of the discussion and he knows as much about crypto as Sternlight does. Matt Blaze made a much more finely-nuanced point about this (I wasn't at the Crypto meeting, but read his comments in sci.crypt, and they directly dispute this point by Anonymous.)

pat farrel signs up with the nsa to make the key escrow rules easier for us morons to understand. hey thanks. maybe theyll give you a nicer room in the concentration kamp.

Pat Farrell and several other members of our list attended the NIST key escrow meeting. I would have also if I lived near D.C. Is silence the only acceptable behavior at such meetings? Perhaps Anonymous feels that even _attending_ such a meeting is disgraceful? Most of us disagree.

a whole shitload of socalled cypherpunks jumping over each other to help and defend him.

They "defended" him in the sense that they questioned the motives (and perhaps the emotional age) of Mr. Anonymous. We on this list have had a long interest in key escrow, dating back to the first weeks of this list's existence, and 6 months prior to the public disclosure of Clipper. Much discussion of key escrow in various forms (Clipper, SKE, CKE, GAK) has occurred, and even lists of changes/improvements have been made.

brian davis trys to convinice us that key escrow isnt so bad (who signs your paycheck davie?????)

I recall Brian Davis asking a well-formed question about whether our objections to key escrow would be lessened under various circumstances. A perfectly reasonable thing to do. Several of us responded. What this list is for.

that guy from rand corp tells us words of wisdom from robert morris the nsa guy as if we should write them down and pray three times a day to them.

??? This one escapes me. Robert Morris Sr. has written many interesting things. That he worked for, or still works for, the NSA is no reason to ignore what he has said. Anonymous would probably be thrown into an apoplexy were he to learn that more than one current Cypherpunk actually worked for the NSA.

carl elison designs key escrow for tis and acts like hes one of us.

He _is_ one of us. His work on commercial key escrow (CKE) is not inherently bad. After all, there are many legitimate reasons people and corporations would _choose_ (emphasis on "choose") to split keys, store them with trusted agents, etc. CKE, if done right, may be the way many of us protect ourselves, from loss of keys in various circumstances. Even protect ourselves from having to give keys to others (imagine offshore CKE depositories which have instructions on under what circumstances they will comply....). I ask Anonymou, is it better that an active researcher and developer of CKE be on this list, or that we cast him out (as if we could) and continue in ignorance?

bruce schneier is copyrighting crypt programs and threatining to sue people who use it.

Like it or not, copyrights and patents are the way things are now being done. It sometimes takes having a patent portfolio before one can "trade" with those having other patents. Longterm, this will likely change (crypto anarchy and all that), but for now.... I'm not going to defend software patents, but insults like this, for someone who has worked so hard on crypto education, are uncalled for.

even phil zimmerman is selling the rights to pgp. what about all the people who contributed code (like me). not a dime for us because phil is famous and your not alowed to say anythingn bad about him. sorry i forgot phil is god. no one dares to complain. ask phil about me and when i asked about sharing profits from the code i conrtibuted. also about the deal with r.f...

Now we know that Anonymous is actually a plant from the One Worlders! Insulting Saint Phil is too much.

lets get back to being punks. fuck these traitors. do crypto and fuck the nsa.

Articulate words. Or, as Anonymous woud put it: "fuck this noyze. get back to hacking commodore 64 warez. crypto rulez, d00d!" Amazing what the cloak of Anonymity brings out in people. Almost enough for me to start to believe the doubters of anonymity, the skeptics. But, with good filtering (and especially with positive reputation filtering), no big deal to send Anonymous to the oblivion he so richly deserves. I've written a lot in my time on this list, and no doubt Anonymous will find many items he thinks prove I am working for the NSA, or Chobetsu, or am an agent for the Beast. So be it. --Tim May ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^756839 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."