DEA trying to subpoena book dealers
Heard on the radio this morning that a book publisher in Berkeley received a subpoena from the DEA (not from a judge, from a DEA agent...) requesting information on everybody in Arizona who bought their book on marijuana hydroponics. The publisher declined to cooperate, and there was a nice First Amendment riff from the reporter about it. Their name sounded like Ronin Press. A book store in Tempe also received a subpoena for names of everyone who'd bought the book. Cypherpunks relevance? Will web publishers get the same treatment? Will corporations running Corporate Message Recovery get requests for email sent to their sales addresses? How many of them will comply rather than noticing the bogosity of the subpoena? On the other hand, at least with CMR, companies can set decide how much information to keep, and this sort of abuse may encourage them to limit their use of it. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 [I'm currently having hardware problems with my main email; send Cc: billstewart@att.com if you need to reach me in a hurry.]
At 9:41 AM -0700 10/27/97, stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Heard on the radio this morning that a book publisher in Berkeley received a subpoena from the DEA (not from a judge, from a DEA agent...) requesting information on everybody in Arizona who bought their book on marijuana hydroponics. The publisher declined to cooperate, and there was a nice First Amendment riff from the reporter about it. Their name sounded like Ronin Press. A book store in Tempe also received a subpoena for names of everyone who'd bought the book.
At the Gun Show I was at yesterday, a book dealer (who deals only in cash, not checks and not credit cards, and who has no interest in keeping names of customers in any kind of file) said that law enforcement often wanders around the tables at the gun show, asking about the books on making C-4 explosives, making silencers for guns, growing dope, making methamphetamines, rigging booby traps, etc. This is why most of the dealers operate on a cash-and-carry basis. I don't know if any of the dealers have yielded to pressures to give up lists of customers, but I suspect most of them haven't. And cash makes it tough. (This is, ObCrypto, why true 2-way untraceability is needed for ecash systems. When Chaum speaks of only 1-way untraceability (protecting the buyer from surveillance) being needed, he neglects the cases where law enforcement busts a _seller_. For online transactions, this is a very real issue. Suppliers of the above-type information, but also suppliers of birth control information, abortion info, controversial material, pornography, etc. Chaum conceded these points, and said he'd think about how sellers could be protected in his latest scheme.) By the way, most of these books are of a far more accurate, it appears, quality than that found in the usual book cited, "The Anarchist Cookbook." That book was most probably a CIA disinformation work, designed to blow up some would-be bombmakers. Sort of like "think of it as evolution in action." The dealer I bought $150 worth of books and pamphlets from had a sign saying "This ain't Barnes and Noble." Indeed. As for plant cultivation, I'm sure we all recall the cases where DEA SWAT teams have raided homes because some electric company report gave the DEA some suspicion that grow lamps were being used. (In a lot of these raids, there are "side effects" of the residents being sprayed with small arms fire. "Whoops." Even more embarassing when no grow lamps are found. "Whoops." So much for the Fourth Amendment, which was gutted more than 70 years ago during the First War on Drugs.)
Cypherpunks relevance? Will web publishers get the same treatment? Will corporations running Corporate Message Recovery get requests for email sent to their sales addresses? How many of them will comply rather than noticing the bogosity of the subpoena? On the other hand, at least with CMR, companies can set decide how much information to keep, and this sort of abuse may encourage them to limit their use of it.
Though it's more likely with CMR deployed for companies to be _instructed_ by the FTC, SEC, OSHA, IRS, etc., _not_ to delete messages from their CMR archives. In fact, I'll bet that if CMR is widely deployed in corporate America that various regulatory agencies will publish standards (like Accounting standards) for how such CMR archives are to be handled. Altering CMR archives will be treated akin to shredding files, which most companies are now disincentivized from doing. --Tim May The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^2,976,221 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Tim May wrote:
At 9:41 AM -0700 10/27/97, stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Heard on the radio this morning that a book publisher in Berkeley received a subpoena from the DEA (not from a judge, from a DEA agent...) etc.... The dealer I bought $150 worth of books and pamphlets from had a sign saying "This ain't Barnes and Noble." Indeed.
As for plant cultivation, I'm sure we all recall the cases where DEA SWAT teams have raided homes because some electric company report gave the DEA some suspicion that grow lamps were being used. (In a lot of these raids, there are "side effects" of the residents being sprayed with small arms fire. "Whoops." Even more embarassing when no grow lamps are found. "Whoops." So much for the Fourth Amendment, which was gutted more than 70 years ago during the First War on Drugs.)
That wouldn't be the Donald Scott case, would it? I'm so suprised at you, Tim. The local prosecutor said they "lost their moral compass". The poor men! Now go back home, fill out your 1040 and shuddup. ;-) Maybe someone will eventually voluteer to go find their moral compass for them.
The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
the feds want a ban on cryptography some people want a cryptographic ban on the feds have a better one, jvb
At 1:53 PM -0700 10/27/97, Jim Burnes wrote:
On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Tim May wrote:
As for plant cultivation, I'm sure we all recall the cases where DEA SWAT teams have raided homes because some electric company report gave the DEA some suspicion that grow lamps were being used. (In a lot of these raids, there are "side effects" of the residents being sprayed with small arms fire. "Whoops." Even more embarassing when no grow lamps are found. "Whoops." So much for the Fourth Amendment, which was gutted more than 70 years ago during the First War on Drugs.)
That wouldn't be the Donald Scott case, would it? I'm so suprised at you, Tim. The local prosecutor said they "lost their moral compass". The poor men! Now go back home, fill out your 1040 and shuddup. ;-)
Donald Scott, of Malibu, was one of these examples. For those who don't know the story, he was a retired medical doctor, living with his wife on a farm or ranchette of some sort on the Malibu coast, adjacent to some L.A. County public or park lands. Environmentalist groups had been trying to get him to sell his land cheaply, or donate it, to the parklands system. The LA County Sheriff's Office apparently took a close look at his land, to see if there was any way they could force him to sell. As I recall the story (a Web search will reveal more), they found a snitch who said Donald Scott was growing pot on his property. Aerial surveys were inconclusive. They raided his home, hoping to find drugs and thus seize the property under the civil forfeiture laws, then sell the property to the parklands system and realized a nice profit. (The civil forfeiture laws work like the "letters of marque and reprisal" system the freebooters had: those doing the raiding get to keep the profits from their raids. This has become a major revenue generator. See old episodes of "Miami Vice" for details on how this works.) Anyway, in the predawn hours the raider ninjas burst into Scott's home. No polite knocks on the door. (As if he could have flushed his alleged marijuana plants down the toilet.) Scott saw the intruders burst into his bedroom, reached for a gun from his night stand, and was sprayed with 9mms. His wife survived. No marijuana plants were found. No drugs were found. Probably not even any Paladin Press books. If there were justice in America, those who did the raiding would be tried, found guilty of capital murder, and sent to the gas chamber at San Quentin. But they won't be. "We lost our moral compass" is the most that will come out of this. Oh, and more laws making it illegal for sheep-units to have guns to defend themselves. And so it goes. This is why I have 3000 rounds of .223 stashed away, and several loaded weapons readily available. And an early warning system in case the night ninjas decide my house needs to be raided before dawn. --Tim May The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^2,976,221 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
At 8:43 AM -0700 10/30/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
Tim May wrote:
And so it goes. This is why I have 3000 rounds of .223 stashed away, and several loaded weapons readily available. And an early warning system in case the night ninjas decide my house needs to be raided before dawn.
What kind of early warning system is it, technically?
Well, now that wouldn't be very smart of me, would it, to tell the world where my defensive measures are? (I'm willing to let would-be ninjas know that I won't take a no-knock raid without fighting back, as this may deter them, in classic game-theoretic terms, but not to tell them precise details of my defenses.) Check the ads in the gun and survival mags for ideas. Seismic (footfall, vehicle) detectors are affordable, but hard to monitor on a 24/7 basis. Simple photolectric vehicle detectors are useful. In my case, I have a private driveway about 100 meters long as the only access to my house. Not to hard to rig up methods to warn of vehicles approaching...harder to warn of men approaching on foot. And even harder if they come up through the brush and chapparal on the other 3 sides. The main thing is to provide a minute or so of warning of vehicles approaching in the middle of the night.
Another question about home defense: it must be really inconvenient to perform all these self-defense actions naked, which would obviously happen during these night raids and robberies.
Is that a problem, and if yes, what are the solutions?
The usual advice is to secure one's bedroom for immediate invasion. (My bedroom is on the second floor, too.) This helps with burglars as well as with ninjas. For example, lock the bedroom door. This will slow down attackers, who first have to gain access to the main house, then have to get in the bedroom. The noise from the first step should provide valuable seconds of awakening, grabbing a gun, etc. I don't think a locked bedroom door will stop an entry team from getting inside in a matter of seconds, but every second helps. (Experts also advise that homeowners facing such assaults "stay put," unless, of course, they have to defend other family members in other rooms.) And ignore the advice from the Consumer Protection Safety Commission, etc., to lock all guns up in safes or vaults or closets. A gun locked up in a gun safe can't be gotten to when it's really needed, can it? Oh, and loading a gun takes far too long, especially in the dark and in a crisis situation. (And keeping ammo out of the gun is only a minor speed bump to inquistive children, so it's not even much protection there.) "What about the children?" For children too young to understand orders, come up with an access solution that gives you fast access but keeps little Suzie from finding the gun. For children old enough to understand orders, and what guns are, tell them exactly what a gun does, show them, educate them, and warn them to NEVER touch the gun or show it to their friends (this is exactly where many accidental shootings happening, with Johnny showing his friends Dad's gun). --Tim May The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^2,976,221 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
(This will have to be my last post, for now at least, on the issues about home defense. These are issues covered frequently on Usenet. DejaNews should turn up thousands of articles.) At 10:44 AM -0700 10/30/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
How about a big dog (living in a doghouse or inside the home) that is properly trained? I think that it is the best and most sensitive early warning system.
Many people do this. Note that most SWAT teams have silenced weapons to take out guard dogs, however. From a distance, before the dog even reacts.
How about reinforced metal sheet doors? THose are not supposed to be too expensive and can be made to look pretty.
Certainly a possibility.
(Experts also advise that homeowners facing such assaults "stay put," unless, of course, they have to defend other family members in other rooms.)
Are there any legal ramifications (like liability in case of death of the intruders) if the homeowner gets out of the locked bedroom and shoots the attackers?
This is well-covered, too. Most states will not prosecute someone for shooting an intruder who is INSIDE THE HOUSE. The usual language, which lawyers know, is about "reasonable fear for one's life." It's easy to convince a jury that one was in fear for one's life when confronting an intruder inside one's home. Less easy outside. And so on. Civil liability is another matter entirely. Often the surviving perp or the dead perp's relatives will sue for whatever the homeowner has, claiming some degree of overreaction, blah blah blah. And this being Amerika, often juries will award huge sums.
And ignore the advice from the Consumer Protection Safety Commission, etc., to lock all guns up in safes or vaults or closets. A gun locked up in a gun safe can't be gotten to when it's really needed, can it?
Depends on a safe, really.
My understanding of all this, which is pretty limited, is that safes are a good idea for storing things when the homeowner is not home or does not immediately control access to valuable things.
Obviously. But I wasn't talking about this. Jeesh.
Suzie from finding the gun. For children old enough to understand orders, and what guns are, tell them exactly what a gun does, show them, educate them, and warn them to NEVER touch the gun or show it to their friends
I would never follow any fucking orders from my parents.
Then think of this as evolution in action. --Tim May The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^2,976,221 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
At 11:44 AM 10/30/1997 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
How about a big dog (living in a doghouse or inside the home) that is properly trained? I think that it is the best and most sensitive early warning system.
Invading Feds shoot big dogs, though I suppose gunshots are a warning. Little yappy annoying dogs are often a more sensitive early warning system, and aren't perceived as a threat.
Another question about home defense: it must be really inconvenient to perform all these self-defense actions naked, which would obviously happen during these night raids and robberies. Is that a problem, and if yes, what are the solutions?
Makes it easier for cops to see that you're not a threat, or that you are a threat. If your underwear's not Kevlar, it's not contributing much to the process, and cops are probably more embarassed about beating up naked people. On the other hand, naked with blue woad warpaint is a different game :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
Tim May wrote:
At 8:43 AM -0700 10/30/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
Tim May wrote:
And so it goes. This is why I have 3000 rounds of .223 stashed away, and several loaded weapons readily available. And an early warning system in case the night ninjas decide my house needs to be raided before dawn.
What kind of early warning system is it, technically?
Well, now that wouldn't be very smart of me, would it, to tell the world where my defensive measures are? (I'm willing to let would-be ninjas know that I won't take a no-knock raid without fighting back, as this may deter them, in classic game-theoretic terms, but not to tell them precise details of my defenses.)
Check the ads in the gun and survival mags for ideas. Seismic (footfall, vehicle) detectors are affordable, but hard to monitor on a 24/7 basis. Simple photolectric vehicle detectors are useful. In my case, I have a private driveway about 100 meters long as the only access to my house. Not to hard to rig up methods to warn of vehicles approaching...harder to warn of men approaching on foot. And even harder if they come up through the brush and chapparal on the other 3 sides.
Which is what any sensible attacker would do anyway. How about a big dog (living in a doghouse or inside the home) that is properly trained? I think that it is the best and most sensitive early warning system.
Another question about home defense: it must be really inconvenient to perform all these self-defense actions naked, which would obviously happen during these night raids and robberies.
Is that a problem, and if yes, what are the solutions?
The usual advice is to secure one's bedroom for immediate invasion. (My bedroom is on the second floor, too.) This helps with burglars as well as with ninjas. For example, lock the bedroom door. This will slow down attackers, who first have to gain access to the main house, then have to get in the bedroom. The noise from the first step should provide valuable seconds of awakening, grabbing a gun, etc. I don't think a locked bedroom door will stop an entry team from getting inside in a matter of seconds, but every second helps.
How about reinforced metal sheet doors? THose are not supposed to be too expensive and can be made to look pretty.
(Experts also advise that homeowners facing such assaults "stay put," unless, of course, they have to defend other family members in other rooms.)
Are there any legal ramifications (like liability in case of death of the intruders) if the homeowner gets out of the locked bedroom and shoots the attackers?
And ignore the advice from the Consumer Protection Safety Commission, etc., to lock all guns up in safes or vaults or closets. A gun locked up in a gun safe can't be gotten to when it's really needed, can it?
Depends on a safe, really. My understanding of all this, which is pretty limited, is that safes are a good idea for storing things when the homeowner is not home or does not immediately control access to valuable things.
Suzie from finding the gun. For children old enough to understand orders, and what guns are, tell them exactly what a gun does, show them, educate them, and warn them to NEVER touch the gun or show it to their friends
I would never follow any fucking orders from my parents. - Igor.
Tim May wrote: Well, now that wouldn't be very smart of me, would it, to tell the world where my defensive measures are? (I'm willing to let would-be ninjas know
Security thru Obscurity Mr. May? Tsk. Tsk.
to perform all these self-defense actions naked, which would obviously happen during these night raids and robberies.
Is that a problem, and if yes, what are the solutions?
Get used to running around naked. Your testes are the least of your concern at that point, and unless you are well outside the normal range, they shouldn't cause much of a problem (side question...from a evolutionary standpoint, given a lack of clothing would "over-endowment" tend to be a non-survival trait, or do we not want to go there?).
The usual advice is to secure one's bedroom for immediate invasion. (My bedroom is on the second floor, too.) This helps with burglars as well as with ninjas. For example, lock the bedroom door. This will slow down attackers, who first have to gain access to the main house, then have to get in the bedroom. The noise from the first step should provide valuable
Ladders. I'd bet that any trained "ninja" could get a ladder up against the side of a house quietly enough to prevent those inside from waking and be in thru the window before you could get the gun out from under the pillow.
seconds of awakening, grabbing a gun, etc. I don't think a locked bedroom door will stop an entry team from getting inside in a matter of seconds, but every second helps.
Unless you are using exterior doors, I wouldn't count on more than 1/2 second.
(Experts also advise that homeowners facing such assaults "stay put," unless, of course, they have to defend other family members in other rooms.)
How many people have been thru enough of these to be considered experts? Seriously? When the law breaks in, you don't have _time_ to leave. Those people train to move fast.
Tim May wrote:
And so it goes. This is why I have 3000 rounds of .223 stashed away, and several loaded weapons readily available. And an early warning system in case the night ninjas decide my house needs to be raided before dawn.
What kind of early warning system is it, technically? Another question about home defense: it must be really inconvenient to perform all these self-defense actions naked, which would obviously happen during these night raids and robberies. Is that a problem, and if yes, what are the solutions? - Igor.
On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
Another question about home defense: it must be really inconvenient to perform all these self-defense actions naked, which would obviously happen during these night raids and robberies.
Is that a problem, and if yes, what are the solutions?
It really depends on the quality of the early warning system. If you have a good one, you have plenty of time to put on the Kevlar outfit. [Make sure to buy the kind with ceramic plate inserts if your threat model includes rifles]. -- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred. "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"
Tim May wrote:
And so it goes. This is why I have 3000 rounds of .223 stashed away, and several loaded weapons readily available. And an early warning system in case the night ninjas decide my house needs to be raided before dawn.
What kind of early warning system is it, technically?
Another question about home defense: it must be really inconvenient to perform all these self-defense actions naked, which would obviously happen during these night raids and robberies.
Is that a problem, and if yes, what are the solutions?
- Igor.
What are you doing sleeping naked? You should *always* sleep fully clothed.
At 7:43 AM -0800 10/30/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
Another question about home defense: it must be really inconvenient to perform all these self-defense actions naked, which would obviously happen during these night raids and robberies.
Is that a problem, and if yes, what are the solutions?
Wear underwear to bed. Then you won't be naked when the alarm goes off. (At night it will help if you are naturally dark complexioned.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | Internal surveillance | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | helped make the USSR the | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA
Bill Frantz wrote:
At 7:43 AM -0800 10/30/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
Another question about home defense: it must be really inconvenient to perform all these self-defense actions naked, which would obviously happen during these night raids and robberies.
Is that a problem, and if yes, what are the solutions?
Wear underwear to bed. Then you won't be naked when the alarm goes off.
Underwear is annoying, especially if I sleep with someone. - Igor.
On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
Underwear is annoying, especially if I sleep with someone.
Just keep the vest and other gear next to the bed together with your rifle. That works fine for a lot of people. -- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred. "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"
On Mon, Oct 27, 1997 at 11:04:34AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
a subpoena for names of everyone who'd bought the book.
At the Gun Show I was at yesterday, a book dealer (who deals only in cash, not checks and not credit cards, and who has no interest in keeping names of customers in any kind of file) said that law enforcement often wanders around the tables at the gun show, asking about the books on making C-4 explosives, making silencers for guns, growing dope, making methamphetamines, rigging booby traps, etc. This is why most of the dealers operate on a cash-and-carry basis. I don't know if any of the dealers have yielded to pressures to give up lists of customers, but I suspect most of them haven't. And cash makes it tough.
Sadly, it appears that another catagory of hobby flea market is soon to join this ever growing list. A bill (HR2369) working its way through the House bans the "manufacture, sale, distribution, modification, import, export" of radio equipment such as scanners (but by no means limited to scanners) that can be used for "unauthorized interception of wireless communications" and provides 5 year jail terms and $500,000 fines for each individual sale. While this may or may not seem just a bit draconian to a privacy oriented group such as cypherpunks, it should be noted that most ham radio equipment sold in the last 20 years covers more than just ham bands, and almost all scanners (which have legitimate and fully legal uses to monitor public safety and other wireless (radio) communications without a legal expectation of privacy under the ECPA) cover frequencies which would make them contraband under this proposed law. If passed, the traditional hamfest flea markets where all sorts of bizzare old radio junk gets traded for cash or swapped for other gear will be largely a thing of the past, as almost all radio receivers and transcievers that hams and other electronic hackers might want to sell or trade will be seriously illegal, and one never knows who that anonymous cash customer really is... I guess the obligatory cypherpunk relevance is that if the NSA hadn't pressured the cell industry, cell and cordless phones would be at least minimally encrypted and industry lobbiests would not be pushing to make selling or buying simple used radio receivers more illegal than forcible rape or armed robbery in many states. And of course if anyone doubts NSA's real motive, think of this. They can monitor, under warrent from the secret FISL court, virtually anything they want by intercepting the call at the MTSO switch using those nice CALEA wiretap subroutines... so why do they need to discourage over the air encryption they can't trivially deal with ? Well think about all the intercepts in the USA of US citizen communications done for the TLAs (NSA in particular) by foreign intelligence operations (notably GCHQ but also others) - obviously foreign governments have no standing under FISL and CALEA and cannot get FISL authority to legally wiretap US citizens - so making sure that encrypted US wireless communications can be broken by the Brits or Canadians or others makes sure that the NSA can get those UKUSA partners to provide them to NSA and US TLAs when it is politically inconveniant or downright illegal for NSA to intercept them directly. -- Dave Emery N1PRE, die@die.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2 5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18
participants (10)
-
Bill Frantz -
Bill Stewart -
Dave Emery -
ichudov＠Algebra.COM -
Jim Burnes -
Lucky Green -
nobody＠REPLAY.COM -
snow -
stewarts＠ix.netcom.com
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Tim May