Can We Cut the Crap?
Really, the S/N ratio is approaching all-time lows, even for the Silly Season of Xmas. A week or so ago there was a massive flame war involving insults and counter-insults--I returned from my Xmas vacation to find the list melting down. Now, a week later, a new flamewar has erupted. There is no point in the back-and-forth of insults, "Dr. Fred is a loon," "Alice is Detweiler," and other such nonsense. If you don't want to read the comments of Fred Cohen, Dimitri Vulis, Alice whatever, Vlad/Lance/Larry/Pablo, then just don't read them! Filter them out, delete them immediately, read them briefly, whatever. At 5:04 PM 12/31/95, deadbeat wrote:
Regarding Fred Cohen, PhD:
[typical personal insults elided]
Let's also consider the granting institution, a second-rank school.
Well, not quite. I seem to recall that Cohen's advisor at USC was Len Adleman, known perhaps to some of you as the "A" in RSA and more recently as the guy doing the "DNA computing" work. He was also working on viruses, perhaps in conjunction with Cohen, as of 1987-88, and gave an interesting paper at the 1988 Crypto Conference on "An Abstract Theory of Computer Viruses." Not surprisingly, Cohen's papers were the main citations. I recall Adleman describing in the oral talk just how it is that determining if a given program contains a virus is essentially equivalent to solving the halting problem, i.e., it may be undecidable whether a program has a virus, except presumably in some special cases (e.g., for very small programs).
Cohen's thesis broke new ground, but how many people have read it, or any of his writings, or know anything about his ideas beyond a single word? How far did he carry this work? Where are the conference and journal papers? Cohen's reputation faded into obscurity long ago. Now he is building a new reputation as a pig-headed loudmouth, threatening his "defamers." Shades of Sternlight.
I have plenty to disagree with some of what Fred Cohen says, as I do with many people, but this is just plain ignorant. "How many people have read it, or any of his writings..." is a ridiculous argument, even for an ad hominem. Those who want to read it, can read it. The articles are readily available. I've even seen some of his books on the bookshelves of my local bookstores (haven't read them, though I flipped through "It's Alive!" and didn't see much of interest....but how many of us have written _any_ books?). I'm not convinced there's much more about the _theory_ of viruses to "push forward," for various reasons. The theory was laid out, some Bulgarians and others are busily writing viruses, but there's not likely to be some whole reservoir of new theory to be worked on. (This is true of a lot of fields, where the work done decades ago basically was complete....look at how we all cite Garey and Johnson and how little has changed in the field of NP-completeness.) Blasting Cohen because you don't think he carried his work far enough is clearly blasting wildly. Have you asked whether others on this list have carried the work they did in their early careers far enough? (Did I carry my work in the 1970s on alpha particle effects on chips far enough, or am I just a Cohen-like slacker because I moved on to other things?) Anyway, if you don't like Sternlight, or Cohen, or May, or Detweiler, or Metzger, or Vulis, *filter* them out! So why don't I just do this? Well, I do have a filter file in my Eudora Pro mailer, and I use it. But I still see the crossfire on the list, the pointless flames and personal attacks. This angers and saddens me. Hence this message. While I don't subscribe to the extreme view espoused by some, that the topics of the list should be exclusively crypto, math, programming, and Internet standards, I do think people should try to find some relevance to the larger themes of the list. The recent increase in "one-sentance repartee" is indicative of late-stage list meltdown. (Some of the posts here quote a couple of paragraphs, add one or two lines of insults, then have another screenful of PGP sigs, auto-signing sigs, anonymous IDs, and then a conventional sig. Jeesh!) I'm hoping that this is just a Xmas vacation silly season. --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^756839 - 1 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May) writes:
There is no point in the back-and-forth of insults, "Dr. Fred is a loon," "Alice is Detweiler," and other such nonsense. If you don't want to read the comments of Fred Cohen, Dimitri Vulis, Alice whatever, Vlad/Lance/Larry/Pablo, then just don't read them! Filter them out, delete them immediately, read them briefly, whatever.
Or Chris Shalutis, or Ed Carp, or Perry Metzger... Too bad majordomo@toad.com can't be instructed not to send contributions from certain folks to certain other folks. I guess I'll have to figure out how to use procmail with this thing after all. Happy New Year, --- Dr. Dimitri Vulis Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May) writes:
There is no point in the back-and-forth of insults, "Dr. Fred is a loon," "Alice is Detweiler," and other such nonsense. If you don't want to read the comments of Fred Cohen, Dimitri Vulis, Alice whatever, Vlad/Lance/Larry/Pablo, then just don't read them! Filter them out, delete them immediately, read them briefly, whatever.
Or Chris Shalutis, or Ed Carp, or Perry Metzger...
Too bad majordomo@toad.com can't be instructed not to send contributions from certain folks to certain other folks. I guess I'll have to figure out how to use procmail with this thing after all.
Hey, Dimitri? That's what it's *for*! This is not about censorship, or is it? Is that what you're suggesting? No one is forcing you to read anything I, or anyone else, says. If you don't like it, the 'd' key is somewhere on your keyboard. Or is that too much manual labor for you? Grrr... - -- Ed Carp, N7EKG Ed.Carp@linux.org, ecarp@netcom.com 214/993-3935 voicemail/digital pager 800/558-3408 SkyPager Finger ecarp@netcom.com for PGP 2.5 public key an88744@anon.penet.fi "Past the wounds of childhood, past the fallen dreams and the broken families, through the hurt and the loss and the agony only the night ever hears, is a waiting soul. Patient, permanent, abundant, it opens its infinite heart and asks only one thing of you ... 'Remember who it is you really are.'" -- "Losing Your Mind", Karen Alexander and Rick Boyes -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMOeBFCS9AwzY9LDxAQHDxwQApbzrRLJQTcLshlPGx5qCUNYNfFBeloYY 7o0ULL3+dGs+bjE+VsGy+taEBnWp1L1i5BK4NGo44dEV9SwkndnE5bCalS3vCIsd YidfhM8nfDa9+e93Uh7VM63ZLVxi6F2SBvN6vcfnmxC7V9LN/b+jrvUPbJG2tVMx D64Dg2Zd5Jk= =lIHF -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
"Ed Carp [khijol SysAdmin]" <erc@dal1820.computek.net> writes:
No one is forcing you to read anything I, or anyone else, says. If you don't like it, the 'd' key is somewhere on your keyboard. Or is that too much manual labor for you? Grrr...
Ed, no one forced you (or anyone else) to read Fred Cohen while he was posting to this mailing list. I happen to be interested in his point of view. I may or may not agree with it, but I want to know it and I'm grateful to Fred for having taken his time to write. There are people on this mailing list who appear to have very little technical expertise (e.g., can't figure out how an anonymous remailer works), contribute nothing but silly puerile flames to the discussion, and whose harassment has caused Fred to stop contributing. They've deprived Fred of his right to spreak and readers like me of our right to listen. This is censorship by bullying. There exists, AFAIK, no procmail for the weird setup I have on this box. As soon as I get something working, I'll start junking the flamers from my mail feed. --- Dr. Dimitri Vulis Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
There are people on this mailing list who appear to have very little technical expertise (e.g., can't figure out how an anonymous remailer works), contribute nothing but silly puerile flames to the discussion, and whose harassment has caused Fred to stop contributing. They've deprived Fred of his right to spreak and readers like me of our right to listen. This is censorship by bullying.
Now there you are wrong. No one forced Fred to stop posting to the list (I noticed that I just got a posting from him just yesterday, so he may have stopped since then), but no one deprived Fred of his right to speak. I don't see Eric Hughes standing up and saying "Fed, stop posting to the list", and I certainly note that his postings are getting through to the list. So, your statements regarding people harassing Fred, causing him to stop posting, etc., are just eyewash and an attempt to emotionally manipulate your audience by calling it "censorship". - -- Ed Carp, N7EKG Ed.Carp@linux.org, ecarp@netcom.com 214/993-3935 voicemail/digital pager 800/558-3408 SkyPager Finger ecarp@netcom.com for PGP 2.5 public key an88744@anon.penet.fi "Past the wounds of childhood, past the fallen dreams and the broken families, through the hurt and the loss and the agony only the night ever hears, is a waiting soul. Patient, permanent, abundant, it opens its infinite heart and asks only one thing of you ... 'Remember who it is you really are.'" -- "Losing Your Mind", Karen Alexander and Rick Boyes -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMOgP1yS9AwzY9LDxAQG2tgQAqpoTneK0dSqK7VKWBUZZcS710KOnWLlC j1opYymkAzc4dhNUw7NSqwrEm51+lty7xxrXuqDSBrBJp5fkI5sn81Bg3SIN2JFx iIKyvo57oOe/jOoJp7ONmqCpnPvsJbar0T+q7eHXdZCGM4VRSLVrqDxwMg4NnYE4 JFxgqp2qBDo= =09VD -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
"Ed Carp [khijol SysAdmin]" <erc@dal1820.computek.net> writes:
There are people on this mailing list who appear to have very little techni expertise (e.g., can't figure out how an anonymous remailer works), contrib nothing but silly puerile flames to the discussion, and whose harassment ha caused Fred to stop contributing. They've deprived Fred of his right to spr and readers like me of our right to listen. This is censorship by bullying.
Now there you are wrong. No one forced Fred to stop posting to the list (I noticed that I just got a posting from him just yesterday, so he may have stopped since then), but no one deprived Fred of his right to speak. I don't see Eric Hughes standing up and saying "Fed, stop posting to the list", and I certainly note that his postings are getting through to the list. So, your statements regarding people harassing Fred, causing him to stop posting, etc., are just eyewash and an attempt to emotionally manipulate your audience by calling it "censorship".
Ed, I've met Eric Hughes. You're no Eric Hughes. The crypto people on this mailing list have asked people repeatedly to curtail non-crypto-related postings (most recently, Tim May, who started this thread). This is not censorship. The sliencing of Fred Cohen by a lynch mob of non-technicals (who, e.g., send e-mail twice) is a disturbing example of censorship. --- Dr. Dimitri Vulis Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
"Ed Carp [khijol SysAdmin]" <erc@dal1820.computek.net> writes:
There are people on this mailing list who appear to have very little techni expertise (e.g., can't figure out how an anonymous remailer works), contrib nothing but silly puerile flames to the discussion, and whose harassment ha caused Fred to stop contributing. They've deprived Fred of his right to spr and readers like me of our right to listen. This is censorship by bullying.
Now there you are wrong. No one forced Fred to stop posting to the list (I noticed that I just got a posting from him just yesterday, so he may have stopped since then), but no one deprived Fred of his right to speak. I don't see Eric Hughes standing up and saying "Fed, stop posting to the list", and I certainly note that his postings are getting through to the list. So, your statements regarding people harassing Fred, causing him to stop posting, etc., are just eyewash and an attempt to emotionally manipulate your audience by calling it "censorship".
Ed, I've met Eric Hughes. You're no Eric Hughes.
So? How do you know? Your comment made absolutely no sense at all.
The crypto people on this mailing list have asked people repeatedly to curtail non-crypto-related postings (most recently, Tim May, who started this thread). This is not censorship. The sliencing of Fred Cohen by a lynch mob of non-technicals (who, e.g., send e-mail twice) is a disturbing example of censorship.
Crap. If Fred doesn't want to post, that's his choice (as he has indicated in private mail to me), but it's not your call to conclude that he is being "censored". - -- Ed Carp, N7EKG Ed.Carp@linux.org, ecarp@netcom.com 214/993-3935 voicemail/digital pager 800/558-3408 SkyPager Finger ecarp@netcom.com for PGP 2.5 public key an88744@anon.penet.fi "Past the wounds of childhood, past the fallen dreams and the broken families, through the hurt and the loss and the agony only the night ever hears, is a waiting soul. Patient, permanent, abundant, it opens its infinite heart and asks only one thing of you ... 'Remember who it is you really are.'" -- "Losing Your Mind", Karen Alexander and Rick Boyes -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMOgfCCS9AwzY9LDxAQEIHwP/QBvrw/2ePyPqPzs8UcZ3COomXwtYpgBz 8RWnIIdNbEqkf0U/v+OWoeb1cMAPdvyo4CmYLfRlaroSaCGGzfcCDRp3GOtq6zEO njk1QPAoSb5pxT6zABGPO3ogeBbGB3E5a5AKy+yQrc2MpmzFN0r8EOQ1CPReF3c0 YmOgPbn/b5o= =EJk4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
TCM:
There is no point in the back-and-forth of insults, "Dr. Fred is a loon," "Alice is Detweiler," and other such nonsense. If you don't want to read the comments of Fred Cohen, Dimitri Vulis, Alice whatever, Vlad/Lance/Larry/Pablo, then just don't read them! Filter them out, delete them immediately, read them briefly, whatever.
this of course would be obvious to anyone without an ego. however because this list is really "war of the egos", it escapes everyone here (and has for the entire existence of the list). far more fun to yell at someone publicly, esp. through a pseudonym. interesting too how some people who use pseudonyms still cannot avoid defending themselves when attacked. it appears that pseudonyms do not dissociate ego-based psychology from communication. in fact to the contrary they appear to make it more prevalent. this would be an interesting area to study. ripe with lots of seething, semi-conscious feelings and attitudes deep within the psyche. Freud would have a field day with flamewars, trolls, and pseudonyms.
I'm not convinced there's much more about the _theory_ of viruses to "push forward," for various reasons. The theory was laid out, some Bulgarians and others are busily writing viruses, but there's not likely to be some whole reservoir of new theory to be worked on.
I object. this sounds like the 1890 patent worker who suggested the patent office be shut down because, after all, all the important inventions had already been invented. you are careful to attribute your opinion only to yourself, but you must recognize how dangerous speculation about the future is, if you wish to preserve your credibility in the long run. especially sentences that sound like, "there is not much more to be uncovered in so-and-so area" tend to sound especially foolish from future perspectives. the Virus area is in fact ripe with study. Java is actually a language designed to prevent viruses. many have proposed operating systems for computers that may work like the way computer viruses spread. I predict that virus study is really going to blossom even more once Java or other similar languages become more entrenched and "distributed computing" really comes to the fore.
(This is true of a lot of fields, where the work done decades ago basically was complete....look at how we all cite Garey and Johnson and how little has changed in the field of NP-completeness.)
whoa, you are way off here. NP vs. P is a field *ripe* with new studies. what these pioneers did was map out the terrain. but there are still many *unresolved* areas of research here. P vs. NP is *entirely* unresolved. that doesn't mean that someone has come up with an answer and everyone says, "the field is basically complete". what it means is that a bazillion researchers are dying to know the answers to tough questions posed by the pioneers decades ago. it is true there is little progress in some key areas, but only because the problems are so insanely difficult. the work is only "complete" in the sense that it has posed questions that have not required any modification-- they are still the hardest in all of mathematics and computer science, and still not solved. are you aware of how critical the P vs. NP question is to cryptography? theoretically public key cryptography and many other forms in common use today would be "impossible" if P= NP. I've met some very good cryptographers who don't understand this basic point of computer theory. they think one can always just create more ingenious algorithms.
Blasting Cohen because you don't think he carried his work far enough is clearly blasting wildly. Have you asked whether others on this list have carried the work they did in their early careers far enough? (Did I carry my work in the 1970s on alpha particle effects on chips far enough, or am I just a Cohen-like slacker because I moved on to other things?)
uhm, I have to side with PM on this one -- I vote for 40-something slacker. <g>
So why don't I just do this? Well, I do have a filter file in my Eudora Pro mailer, and I use it. But I still see the crossfire on the list, the pointless flames and personal attacks. This angers and saddens me. Hence this message.
the noise is a periodic reoccurence because of the basic list architecture. personally I enjoy it immensely. it's all the grandeur and muck of seething human psychology in digital form. no amount of continual concerned messages will ever change the basic fact that the list architecture by design is highly conducive to noise. to complain about this is like complaining that cars emit exhaust. well, yes, but that's the basic design. you can't get rid of the exhaust until you experiment with a new design. I'm actually not necessarily in favor of a new design here either, even though I have suggested variations/alternatives frequently. as I say, I enjoy it here a lot.
The recent increase in "one-sentance repartee" is indicative of late-stage list meltdown. (Some of the posts here quote a couple of paragraphs, add one or two lines of insults, then have another screenful of PGP sigs, auto-signing sigs, anonymous IDs, and then a conventional sig. Jeesh!)
hee, hee. "meltdown". love that term. but again you mix big egos and a totally open list (throw in a little cryptoanarchy for more explosive force), and this is the inevitable result. there's nothing perplexing or mystifying why this happens. its the basic conclusion reaffirmed zillions of times by many years of this list activity. to complain about this reminds me of person who murdered his parents and then pleads to the court that he was an orphan who deserves relief. that is, this situation here is the creation of everyone who participates, and those who suffer are precisely those that created it. cyberspatial karma if you will.
I'm hoping that this is just a Xmas vacation silly season.
well you can always post a exasperated message in which you declare you've had it with the list, period, and are not going to hang out here any more. there is a precedent for that kind of thing.
participants (4)
-
dlv@bwalk.dm.com -
Ed Carp [khijol SysAdmin] -
tcmay@got.net -
Vladimir Z. Nuri