Re: Credentials Without Identity
I do not intend my comments below to be disrespectful to the people of Sweden. At 4:32 AM 11/5/95, Mats Bergstrom wrote:
Ah, the Swedish way is so much more convenient. Directly after birth you get a tag around your arm, with a number that is later changed to an entry into several databases, including 'Birth Registry' and you get your Person Number for life, in the format YYMMDD-abcd, which is unique (at least in Sweden). All forthcoming database entries are based on this number, usually as a first key field. Surprise immigrants get a
The Swedish way may be more convenient, but the Nazi way was even more convenient. The Person Numbers (or NonPerson Numbers, I suppose) were tattooed directly on the arms. For many of us, the essence of strong crypto, crypto anarchy, and the Cypherpunks list is to avoid this "Swedish future." Truly a blight on mankind, if you ask me. The U.S is moving swiftly in this direction. (Ironically, the foreign press clucks at our "fascism" with Proposition 187-type measures, while there own countries are far more restrictive in allowing immigration.) Fortunately, I have heard there is a "right wing" backlash growing in some of the Scandinavian countries, especially Norway and Denmark. ("Right wing" is what the press calls it...I hope it's really "anti-left wing," anti-cradle-to-grave-socialism.)
other person). Most Government databases are open to the public, so the credit tracking agencies don't have to work very hard regarding
The worst of both worlds: the government mandates that information be collected at every turn, then opens the records for all to see.
Now, there are laws against cross-referencing various databases without the approval of the Data Inspection, which often says no.
To my surprise, several people on this list have expressed support for the need for so-called "data privacy laws." I look at it this way: if I put things on my computer based on things I have learned, or even compile lists of people and places, etc., who can enter my home and demand that I expunge these records? The problem with well-intentioned laws about data privacy is that they impinge directly on the freedom to read and write, to make lists, to enter thoughts into computers, etc. (I'm sure the _intent_ is to go after MasterCard-type operations and inaccurate records, but businesses in Britain are already facing investigation for having computerized mailing lists. Ironically, the Cypherpunks mailing list might be illegal in the U.K. unless the legal forms were properly filled out, the fees paid, the parties notified on a regular basis of information about them, etc. And our archiving of posts is ipso facto illegal under several interpretations of the Data Privacy laws of some countries unless extensive notifications are made and permissions received. The Data Privacy laws make us all criminals for storing received messages in data bases.) More practically, giving a government the power to say which data bases are acceptable, and which data bases are illegal, is a terrible thing. Besides the opportunities for abuse (by a Stalin, a Nixon, a Pol Pot, a Clinton), it is also an impractical law to enforce, as Mats' next point makes:
But if you do it illegaly, there is very little risk of detection. It looks like the Approved ID will be a smart-card with a signing mechanism (probably escrowed), naturally linked to the Person Number, real soon now, at least before the mythical y.2000 . Links to physical characteristics (retina?) are not (openly) discussed yet but may eventually come into play. ...
And:
2) Prepare for Crypto Anarchy. Create untrackable net aliases for future use. Keep informed of all the tricks to bypass coming futile attempts to link net pseudonyms to Person Numbers (or physical characteristics). Enjoy (and help create and protect) the virtual sanctuary with digital mixes and anonymous http proxies (and DC-nets or something better eventually).
Sad, isn't it, that the world is rushing headlong into an Orwellian future. "Disneyland with a death penalty" ("Wired"--S. Sandfort, W. Gibson). --Tim May Views here are not the views of my Internet Service Provider or Government. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^756839 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."
In article <Pine.HPP.3.91.951105123707.4854A-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>, Mats Bergstrom <asgaard@sos.sll.se> wrote:
This applies very much so in Sweden too. It *is* illegal to maintain any database with 'information on persons' (like their email addresses) without approval from the Data Inspection. But it's an open secret that this law is broken on a massive front and no bureaucrat is really trying to uphold it.
This is the worst possible situation, because it equates to a licence to harass for the police. If you obey the law, then you are at a disadvantage compared to people who are not bound by it because they are ignoring it, and who can because they are doing government-friendly things; but if you break the law, then you can be prosecuted. -- Shields.
(PRIVATE mail, taken from the cp-list) I choose to make these 'off-topic' comments off the record: (By the way, please keep on 'crypto-moderating' the list your way; it makes much more sense - and is much more effective! - than Perry's.)
Fortunately, I have heard there is a "right wing" backlash growing in some of the Scandinavian countries, especially Norway and Denmark. ("Right wing" is what the press calls it...I hope it's really "anti-left wing," anti-cradle-to-grave-socialism.)
Well, also in Sweden, but this is merely against tax money transfered to the 'less fortunate' (or 'lazy', as you sometimes call them) and is very little, if at all, connected to anti-surveillance. Cross-referencing various databases would actually be good for catching those who receive, for example, unemploment money while actually working full time (especially common amongst Mediterranian and Middle East 'political' refugees - many of whom like to come here and work for a handful of years, sometimes adding a decade to their actual age so they can go home to a warm climate at 55 to live as kings on their Swedish pensions). Isn't this a dilemma, also at your home turf? FINCEN efficiency might save some of your tax dollars.
To my surprise, several people on this list have expressed support for the need for so-called "data privacy laws." I look at it this way: if I put
I completely agree with you - actually, I think I took over some arguments from you on this subject long ago - that these laws are bullshit.
lists. Ironically, the Cypherpunks mailing list might be illegal in the U.K. unless the legal forms were properly filled out, the fees paid, the parties notified on a regular basis of information about them, etc. And our
This applies very much so in Sweden too. It *is* illegal to maintain any database with 'information on persons' (like their email addresses) without approval from the Data Inspection. But it's an open secret that this law is broken on a massive front and no bureaucrat is really trying to uphold it.
"Disneyland with a death penalty"
Yes, we live in interesting times. Mats
participants (3)
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Mats Bergstrom -
shields＠tembel.org -
tcmay＠got.net