A member of the Cypherpunks list, who sometimes contributes articles to the list, engaged several of us in a discussion of some topics. He requested that we respect his desire not to have his opinions published, which I am honoring. However, some interesting topics were raised, and I spent a couple of hours responding. Rather than letting the points drop into the black hole of such sublists, I will post my responses here, editing out all references to his identity. Things would be so much easier if he'd just post his views to the list. I surmise that his reasons for not posting have less to do with not wanting to be associated with my views, as if that is possible in a free society, and more to do with paranoia about what his employer will think. --Tim This is my article:

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:03:56 -0700 To: xxxx Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant Cc: xxxx

(He commented that I am marginalizing myself and my compatriots by my angry views. I replied:)

The list was just as "intense" in 1993, for example. Any reading of the traffic after the Waco incident in April of that year will show this clearly. And 1994 was also intense, what with the heated discussion of anonymous assassination contracts, use of crypto by some associates in White Aryan Resistance and other politically incorrect groups, and so on.

(There was even Froomkin-described "cannibalism" that year, as the list _exploded_ in condemnation of Jerry Berman's EFF-led sellout on the Wiretap Bill (aka Digital Telephony, aka CALEA, etc.). In fact, this "cannibalism" was practiced by nearly everyone outside the specific axis which made the Grand Compromise. It is widely believed that this event led to the flight from D.C. of EFF and its current marginal status as a mover and shaker. (Other reasons, too, I've heard from those who were present. I'm not claiming to be "ahead of the curve," to use Marc's characterization, on this one. He was there, I was not. But clearly the support of DT/CALEA had a major, traumatizing effect on EFF. )

(He predicts that "moderate" list members will leave the list because of my articles. He says he stopped posting months ago because he saw the general trend getting worse. )

I hadn't seen essays from you in a long time, xxxxx, nor from yyyyy. It seems that a lot of folks have "been there, done that" on writing essays, regardless of their ideological points of view. Even Detweiler writes very few essays.

Many of the former active contributors are now with crypto companies or Internet companies in one form or another. Hal Finney is with PGP, a bunch of folks (Barnes, Parekh, Green, Sandfort...) are with C2, some were with xxxxxx (as you know), and so on. A bunch of others are doing security or crypto work at the various companies, including Netscape, Intuit, Microsoft, Excite, Qualcomm, etc.

(There are also reasons for them to "tone down" their rhetoric. Some of them have sent me e-mail saying they agree with my points (or disagree, as the case may be) but do not feel comfortable posting publically, given their present employment with these companies. This is a natural development. Go back and read the rhetoric in 1992-5 about controversial issues....many of the essayists of even the most controversial pieces then are now at companies and are understandably less vocal. So?)

Plus there have been the usual spin-off lists. Lewis McCarthy decided, I presume, that he had internalized the political message of Cypherpunks and wanted only a C and C++ forum, so he created "coderpunks." Perry Metzger, certainly no stranger to libertarian ranting, decided apparently that he wanted to control which rants got distributed so he created "cryptography."

This is also natural. If you don't like who is left on Cypherpunks, and who is posting, then either leave it or post the kind of stuff you'd like to see.

Those who never post anymore are in a poor position to criticize others for what they post.

(He claims I have marginalized myself and says he expects either no reply from me or a venomous one.)

Well, this is a response. I don't think it's venomous. It's what I think.

It's true that there are relatively few "primer" essays on Cypherpunks these days; the time for that was in the early years, especially the first year. Many of those essay writers who wrote long articles on public key systems, signatures, etc., are now in the companies mentioned above. Plus, having already done it there is little incentive to do it again.

So? This is the natural evolution of any community.

I'll stop now.

All I can say is that if you find the Cypherpunks list no longer to your liking, the choice is obvious. Or, if you want to stay but want the discussions moved in other directions, write articles in these directions. You can hardly complain if you're silent.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."