At 5:45 PM -0700 11/11/97, Monty Cantsin wrote:

As Michel Foucault used to say, "The only guarantee of freedom is freedom itself." Put another way, "rights which are not exercised are lost." We don't see Freeh and Reno backing off so they don't become poster children for cryptoanarchy, do we?

Just so. The notion that we have to tone down, moderate, and soften our words so that the Authorities won't get angry at us is 90% of the problem in America today. (And a problem in most other countries, where one finds otherwise reasonable folks talking about the need to restrain habits like chewing gum, practicing Scientology, and seeking birth control information. Not to mention "voluntary mandatory" silence about the Holocaust.)

Just because free speech is a right guaranteed under the Constitution does not mean that is necessarily a safe right to exercise. Let us hope that Tim does not come to harm. But, let us also give him the credit he deserves for having the courage to speak his mind.

Thank you. And contrary to what Hettinga claimed in one of his posts, I did not call for a judge to be killed. (Though, as I understand the law, that's not in and of itself illegal.) What I said was that the judge(s) in the Paladin case had committed a capital crime. Saying, for example, that OJ committed a capital crime is not uncommon, so why should judges be exempt from similar opinions? What we are seeing with Hettinga's anguished armchair analysis of me and my motivations is a lot of overly personal, even fixated, attention on me and my life. He pretends to know my social life, pretends to understand why I won't just tone down my comments and not rock the boat. Utter nonsense. ....

People said exactly the same things that Hettinga is saying here. If they would only behave (i.e., go along with anything), then they wouldn't have to be censored. ... A few courageous people doing the right thing at the right time make a big difference. This does not happen by kowtowing to whichever malfeasant tyrant happens to be in power. When you are asked to wear a yellow star, you can be pretty sure that doing so will not save you.

Also, let us not pretend that Tim's gun collection is much protection. It may delay capture or raise the price of execution of a no-knock warrant, but if the Powers That Be don't want Tim around, then he's gone. It could be a "lone nut" with a sniper rifle, it could be a "heart attack", it could be a rock star's plane "accidently" hitting the house: there are many ways to take care of troublemakers.

I fully agree, and have not said I expect a full-scale assault on me, nor have I said I would expect to win such a war. The context of my recent comments about guns was the Gun Shows recently. (I haven't seen Hettinga foaming at the mentions by certain other Cypherpunks of the Cypherpunks Shooting Club (which I am too far away from to attend, by the way). Nor did I see him remonstrate against the list member who brought his AR-15 carbine to a Cypherpunks meeting and held it up, like any good revolutionary holding up his Kalashnikov.) It happens that a lot of totalitarian moves are happening at this time. My "Mad as Hell" article lists a bunch of them. CDA clones, new crypto legislation, Clinton banning importation of fully-compliant foreign weapons, etc. And the rumors are mounting about a series of possible raids around the holidays this Thanksgiving Day. The FBI has acknowledge the fax sent out as legitimate. While militia members and Cypherpunks may not be able to withstand a full out war for very long, the mere willingness to defend oneself can itself act as a deterrent. This is basic game theory, basic strategy. Scared bunny little rabbits who tone down their words so as not to make their masters angry at them will not be any safer, ironically enough. --Tim May The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^2,976,221 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 7:45 pm -0500 on 11/11/97, Monty wrote:

As Michel Foucault used to say, "The only guarantee of freedom is freedom itself."

The world's foremost pseudomystical relativist cited to support an absolutist position. The logic escapes me. But then, logic, much less independent thinking, was never Foucault's strong point.

Put another way, "rights which are not exercised are lost."

True enough, but it doesn't follow from your Foucault quote very much. Besides, I'd rather say "because it can be done, it will be done." Especially if it's better. Freedom gives you all kinds of benefits you don't get from totalitarianism, including a more robust economy, and thus, the society it's founded on. Yeah, I know. It smacks of utilitarian determinism, even, horrors, logical positivism. So, um, shoot me, okay? :-). On second thought, don't. I'm not the guy asking for a no-knock around here...

We don't see Freeh and Reno backing off so they don't become poster children for cryptoanarchy, do we?

No, but that's not the point people are making about Tim. If you see a pride of lions before they see you, it's probably a good idea to give them a little room. It's not usually a good idea to walk up to them unarmed, and scold them for being carnivorous. And, frankly, Tim's arsenal, against a good entry team, is the equivalent of facing that entry team unarmed. Shooting them only makes them mad. However, to continue the above analogy, I know not why :-), if you're just waiting for a Land Rover to come by, so you can get closer without the lions eating you, I, personally, would call that prudent. Once ensconced in Leyland's Finest, you can scold your lions all you want, because the technology protects your foolishness. So, by the same token, I would also say that if you're going to threaten a federal judge with death on a public email list, it might behoove you to use a nym and a remailer. Like you do, Monty. Using a nym and a remailer, I mean, not threatening a federal judge. :-).

Just because free speech is a right guaranteed under the Constitution does not mean that is necessarily a safe right to exercise. Let us hope that Tim does not come to harm. But, let us also give him the credit he deserves for having the courage to speak his mind.

Yes. Fine. Tim has courage. God bless him. Hope he enjoys his firefight. May the laser sights of his enemies never stay long enough on his motor cortex to get a clean shot off. Etcetera.

I've been reading about a newspaper called the "Aurora" which operated in the 1790s from Philadelphia.

Yes. I read it too, when it came out. Franklin was my favorite patriot. Aurora was founded by his grandson(?), if I remember. The one who went with Franklin to Paris, as a kid, right?

It made itself very unpopular with Washington by claiming he was not the "Father of the Country". It made itself doubly unpopular with Adams for other less than respectful, but astute, observations.

Right. And then Adams passed the Alien and Sedition laws. And then the Supreme court took him out. Game over.

People said exactly the same things that Hettinga is saying here.

First of all, let's clear the air about this right now. The bit where I said,

...

I mean, Tim, I have to admit I'm just as nervous as the next guy about being next to soft targets these days,

is not me saying that I'm afraid that Tim is going to get us all sent to Auschwitz-on-the-Patomac, or something. Far from it. It means exactly what I said. That the situation *does* seem politically unstable at the moment. Well, technologically unstable, anyway, with the rumored availabilty of suitcase nukes, and a jumpy bunch of Feds almost hoping it's so, so they'll have a few years more of the Cold War ricebowl to last them 'till retirement. Winn Schwartau and the "InfoWar" boys are good examples of this kind of dreck. To return to the point, my actual concern, if you can call it that at this point after so much haggling about it, is this now marginal feeling I have that Tim's going to go piss on some cop's shoes and find himself with a 9 millimeter lobotomy one day. It, frankly, makes me feel sad. Tim's very smart guy, and I've learned a lot from him, as I expect most people on this list have. All that, coupled with the "Final Days" pseudomillenial, well, literally, FUD, that seems to pervade this list lately, finally brought me to my feet out of lurker mode to call a spade a spade: The emperor, ladies and gentleman, has no clothes. The sky isn't falling. The martians aren't coming, and, face it, folks, the revolution ain't comin' at sunrise tomorrow, romantic though it may be to believe. We aren't even going to have Bosnia on the Bay next *week*, even if some people *do* want a little more challenge in their lives than they're currently getting. :-). At the very worst, all we're going to get is Tim and his local federales playing king of the hill, probably with a resultant sinecure for a bunch of defense lawyers and prosecutors. The irony of Tim, the putative anarchist, shooting his hard earned asset wad on a bunch of lawyers is a sad one, to say the least.

If they would only behave (i.e., go along with anything), then they wouldn't have to be censored.

Hogwash. What the conventional wisdom held, back in the 1790's, was a bunch of neoaristocratic justifications for the devine rights of the state, reminiscent of the devine rights of kings, and that George Washington, as the victor of the revolutionary war, deserved as much power as he wanted. (Sounds an awful lot like Napoleon, a generation later, who inherited a similar post-revolutionary society, but one without any prior democratic traditions.) By their logic, Adams, as his successor, was due the same power that Washington "abdicated" when he stepped down after his second term. Fortunately, a certain "nym" named Publius advocated the separation of powers in the constitution, which created a supreme court, which used Jefferson's Bill of Rights to shut all that crap down before it went too far, modulo a little jail time for those who crash-tested the idea. Frankly, the fact that the constitutional convention *voted* for the Bill of Rights, or that the Continental Congress voted for the Declaration of Independence before that, said more about the efficacy of 150 years of prexisting decentralized personal autonomy in America than it ever did about Jefferson's euclidean derivation of the rights of man, duly voted on and approved in Philadelphia. And, as I've said in another post in this thread, that's the point. The technological conditions are right again, this time for the kind of devolution from central authority that we had at the time of the American revolution, but, instead of the formation of smaller nation-states, or even Somolian clan warfare on the streets of Cupertino :-), I think that most industrialized countries will just continue see the further replacement of government control with economic forces. More freedom, in other words, all because of the collapse in the price of information processing. The nation state will become more ceremonial, not more dictatorial.

Even though the editors were attacked and beaten, imprisoned, and charged with Federal crimes, they persevered. It would not be unreasonable to say that Jefferson owed his Presidency to their efforts. Indeed, it would not be too much to say that the Constitution (which failed to protect them) might not have survived without their efforts.

Really? Exactly how were they released then, when the Alien and Sedition Acts were found unconstitional? Again, I find the result more a function of the economics -- and not the mysticism -- of freedom, than anything else. To be viciously blunt, here, people live longer, and make more money, when they're free. That's why we have freedom now. The cost of anything is the foregone alternative. When you have a free society you forego misery. :-). I love progress.

A few courageous people doing the right thing at the right time make a big difference. This does not happen by kowtowing to whichever malfeasant tyrant happens to be in power. When you are asked to wear a yellow star, you can be pretty sure that doing so will not save you.

Also, let us not pretend that Tim's gun collection is much protection. It may delay capture or raise the price of execution of a no-knock warrant, but if the Powers That Be don't want Tim around, then he's gone. It could be a "lone nut" with a sniper rifle, it could be a "heart attack", it could be a rock star's plane "accidently" hitting the house: there are many ways to take care of troublemakers.

Wow. Not a dry eye in the house. Here. Have a hankie, yourself. Very eloquent, Monty, but it's still just mystical thinking. Cheers, Bob Hettinga -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.5 iQEVAwUBNGqkA8UCGwxmWcHhAQHOowf+NjhwYnFCcNk03BEwNcJXRO2gSa92mGA2 zvSDt7ugJX64kQEvtue2gVATdOAE3+B167YWvY33bDgw+ugo0phrZ/jFR3W+gQN1 JRbQy1/3ACA8WG5I8qVUbv4ROXbYQ89BgQ/IavsAS+bky/VsOqEzVpIHOXYuPwOc mf7jauVTUAmgniIIsKhoDf5Cqyfz6XbRmsis30fquxtqMJU+Y45UNIX7ibn8nar1 PGhh3rpNh8xWNtEH2mEjSSf08puNsN3KvSRowjhhNI+KSEeAG/5hazdA4+TsaXGs CctjDH2HYnmj1SuMzOMuK9xgdE1+eZosJlYcYFRnBy6WbKON0Eu0KQ== =KfIx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>