Crypto anarchist getting through customs
At 7:21 PM 1/15/96, Simon Spero wrote:
When I was a student and had long hair, I used to always get questioned when going throught customs. After graduating, and having normal length hair, I had a lot less trouble. Long serving customs officers develop models of characteristics that in the past have been indicative of smuggling or wrong doing. Given that most points of entry are under-staffed, there's not much else they can do.
I was returning from France and Monte Carlo, where I'd given a talk about crypto anarchy, through U.S. Customs at San Francisco. Having just heard of Matt Blaze's experiences, I figured I'd be truthful and see what happened. (I can't recall the exact words, naturally, so this is just a rough version. Things were uncrowded at the Customs gate, and I was the only one in his line, in case it matters.) Young Customs Officer (YCO): "Where are you coming from?" Me: "Monte Carlo. And France." YCO: "Business or pleasure?" Me: "Business." YCO: "What was the business?" Me: "I met with cryptographers and bankers to discuss cryptography and political implications." YCO: " 'Cryptography'? " (A look of no comprehension.) Me: "Yes, cryptography. You know, secret codes, ciphers, stuff like that." YCO: "Were there any foreigners present?" Me: "Yes, it was in Monte Carlo. There were some Russians there, and lots of others." YCO: [brief pause] "Did you bring anything back with you?" Me: "No." YCO: [waved me through] In my carry-on luggage I had half a dozen magneto-optical disks, carring about a gigabyte of stuff. (As props to use during my talk on the France/Monte Carlo side, ironically, to show that borders are fully transparent.) By the way, there were no outgoing checks [unlike Matt, I didn't seek out permission to export anything], of course, and no checks at my entry point at De Gaulle Airport in Paris. [Though there were lots of cops with machine guns, and lots of dire warnings that bags left unattended might be destroyed, a precaution against bombs.] No checks into Monte Carlo, of course (I lived for a year near Monaco, so I knew this would be the case). Frequent travellers to Europe will no doubt confirm what I'm saying. I travelled to dozens of countries in Europe a while back, and never was checked at any borders, save for a quick glance at my passport. --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^756839 - 1 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
On Mon, 15 Jan 1996, Timothy C. May wrote:
YCO: " 'Cryptography'? " (A look of no comprehension.)
Me: "Yes, cryptography. You know, secret codes, ciphers, stuff like that."
YCO: "Were there any foreigners present?"
Me: "Yes, it was in Monte Carlo. There were some Russians there, and lots of others."
YCO: [brief pause] "Did you bring anything back with you?"
Me: "No."
YCO: [waved me through]
You were lucky. had the YCO understood the implications of crypto, he probably would not have been so genial. San Fransisco is a good entry port for that reason --it does not seem to be a major drug entry point via commercial airlines. Secondly, the four or five times I have gone through there have been hi-bye even though I am flagged --however, carrying a foreign service passport (which has no relation to immunity) requires them to manually enter the number... end of story in loose ports.
In my carry-on luggage I had half a dozen magneto-optical disks, carring about a gigabyte of stuff. (As props to use during my talk on the France/Monte Carlo side, ironically, to show that borders are fully transparent.)
For the record, I have _never_ imported or exported anything relevant as my own courier; there are far too many easy ways...
Frequent travellers to Europe will no doubt confirm what I'm saying. I travelled to dozens of countries in Europe a while back, and never was checked at any borders, save for a quick glance at my passport.
--Tim May
For the most part that is very true. The only places I ever get hassled is at obscure German-Swiss borders at night (driving). Usually an older officer stuck with nights to encourage resignation --breeds a foul temper and absolute lack of humour --not that the Swiss ever had one <g) --I can say that with impunity: I am Swiss. Other than bombs, the Europeans are just not cynically paranoid.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
yup, there's always high bandwidth spread spectrum in a truck. attila __________________________________________________________________________ go not unto usenet for advice, for the inhabitants thereof will say: yes, and no, and maybe, and I don't know, and fuck-off. _________________________________________________________________ attila__ To be a ruler of men, you need at least 12 inches....
My bullshit detector is starting to pin the needle. US Customs doesn't care about your political status or leanings. They want to collect the proper excise and catch contraband. There are INS people at passport control. I am skeptical that they would detain a US passport holder for 36 hours. I would like to see some evidence that this actually happened. US citizens can't be excluded from the country, nor have their citizenship taken away from them. Alan Horowitz alanh@norfolk.infi.net
well, Mr. Horrowitz, I once had a strong belief in democracy and the U.S. Constitution, particularly the Bill of Rights. ****** IMPORTANT, get your BS detector working! you'd probably call me a lying asshole if I told you your _beloved_ Bubba signed PPD 25 which permits UN control of US forces, _in America_! and allows the UN to bring in UN troops. and, your meter will really peg out if I told you the DOD gave Navy Seals and Marine Recon units a long questionaire to determine their "loyalty" and they even asked "under an order to confiscate weapons from US citizens ...would you shoot to kill [US citizens] who refused to surrender their weapons if so ordered by UN officers? and, you'll scream "liar" if I tell you that the Department of the Navy is not subject to the posse comitase act which prevents the Army from being used in civilian affairs. Guess where the United States Marine Corps, the finest shock troops in history are (125,000 fighting men currently) --Navy. maybe you should review the procedures for the Feds --they have 72 hours to charge you or release you --more if they are lucky enough to bag their prey after 4pm Friday --they are not even required to give you a phone call until you have been read your rights. And, they don't read you your rights unless they charge you. second, check just what your rights are in US border check points --how about probable cause before they subject you to a strip search and body cavity check? how about liability for shredding your possessions if they want to be assholes, and still find nothing? (you're real lucky if you get some Polish luggage (shopping bags) how about some help to put your shit back together? how about a grievance procedure? --that's the big joke. it's not INS, they couldn't give a shit about your politics, but if you name pops up when they "stripe" your passport, they pass that along to the FBI, DEA, and other LEs check out LA next time you go through the Bradley gauntlet. LA will take the time to punch in the numbers on a US FS passport, and US DP passports aint worth a shit in the US. If they get a match, there's an army of those Fed blue jackets with the agency name on the back in large letters --they're highly visible. On Mon, 15 Jan 1996, Alan Horowitz wrote:
My bullshit detector is starting to pin the needle.
your option. I'm not proselytizing!
US Customs doesn't care about your political status or leanings. They want to collect the proper excise and catch contraband.
what ever you say... but they get extra bonus points for a rather large number of things.
There are INS people at passport control. I am skeptical that they would detain a US passport holder for 36 hours. I would like to see some evidence that this actually happened.
well, I'm not passing my jacket --and you cant get it with FOIA anyway, it isn't the INS that detains...
US citizens can't be excluded from the country, nor have their citizenship taken away from them.
which rock you been hiding under?
Alan Horowitz alanh@norfolk.infi.net
remember, a conservative is a liberal, who had his ass mugged last night. __________________________________________________________________________ go not unto usenet for advice, for the inhabitants thereof will say: yes, and no, and maybe, and I don't know, and fuck-off. _________________________________________________________________ attila__ To be a ruler of men, you need at least 12 inches....
I didn't say I like the State. I said that there isn't, relatively speaking, much *political* content to the police-state that is the border. Remember when those Sandanista sympathizers made the news, quite a number of years ago, for getting detained /FBI-interogated/harrassed when they crossed back into the USA? It made the news because that sort of thing *is out of the ordinary* for the USA. And, while I will certainly entertain the suggestion that their actions had a political underpinning, the Feds didn't lack for allegations of violation of United States Statutes to justify the harrasment. If these do-gooders had been doing something that comported with the sympathys of the (then) Administration, if they were in step with the Emperor's current "party line", then any such criminal violations would have been ignored. We all know that. So what? Welcome to realpolitic. Alan Horowitz alanh@norfolk.infi.net
The notorious questionaire to the SEALS wasn't an official action. It was one lieutenient doing an assignment for a night class. I never said that the federal government was good, or nice, or useful. Alan Horowitz alanh@norfolk.infi.net
On Tue, 16 Jan 1996, Alan Horowitz wrote:
The notorious questionaire to the SEALS wasn't an official action. It was one lieutenient doing an assignment for a night class.
I never said that the federal government was good, or nice, or useful.
Alan Horowitz alanh@norfolk.infi.net
that's the bullshit they would like you to believe. in the first place, under military regs, a degree research would be illegal without full permission. It also was not given to just one unit, but to many ==and all identified ones were either SEALS or USMC recon and special units --why just he elite and why so many groups --all with a blessing...? you take your liberal idealism and see how long you have your freedom. your probably one of those who would say "...I have the gold so I can buy the gun!" to which I would say, "...ah, but I have the gun, so I will have both your gold and my gun." no, I don't follow Bo Geitz, or belong to any of the militias, but I expect I am a bit more pragmatic than a liberal. __________________________________________________________________________ go not unto usenet for advice, for the inhabitants thereof will say: yes, and no, and maybe, and I don't know, and fuck-off. _________________________________________________________________ attila__ To be a ruler of men, you need at least 12 inches....
So Attila, what exactly is your extent of familiarity with active-duty military folk? You think that some O-4 going to night school has to get permission from the Pentagon when choosing topics for a Sociology paper? Alan Horowitz alanh@norfolk.infi.net
Looney tune #4535 writes
that's the bullshit they would like you to believe.
in the first place, under military regs, a degree research would be illegal without full permission. It also was not given to just one unit, but to many ==and all identified ones were either SEALS or USMC recon and special units --why just he elite and why so many groups --all with a blessing...?
Could you please remove yourself from cypherpunks to a place where conspiracy theories are wanted. This list is for discussion of cryptography and the only conspiracy theories we are interested involve the NSA, MI5 or the Stay-Puffed Marshmellowman. There is plenty of material to fuel whatever conspiracy theories you like. Please consult Noam Chomsky for details. Just please take the gun.nut conversation somewhere else. After allits in your own best interests, it doesn't take much to realise that the government is monitoring cypherpunks very carefully and that it when they come round collecting the guns in October they will know where to look first. So if the most important thing in your life is lethal weaponry best not take any risks eh? Phill
hallam@w3.org writes:
that's the bullshit they would like you to believe.
Could you please remove yourself from cypherpunks to a place where conspiracy theories are wanted.
Just please take the gun.nut conversation somewhere else.
Yes. Only left-wing, anti-libertarian rants are permitted under the new list rules. Contact Phill directly for a permit.
Jeff Barber writes:
Just please take the gun.nut conversation somewhere else.
Yes. Only left-wing, anti-libertarian rants are permitted under the new list rules. Contact Phill directly for a permit.
I'm as libertarian as they come, but really, random non-crypto talk that has a home elsewhere doesn't belong here on cypherpunks.
On Mon, 15 Jan 1996, Timothy C. May wrote:
Frequent travellers to Europe will no doubt confirm what I'm saying. I travelled to dozens of countries in Europe a while back, and never was checked at any borders, save for a quick glance at my passport.
--Tim May
This may, in part, depend on your mode of transport. Or maybe the phase of the moon. In June of '93, I took a train from Rome to Nice, something which had worked nicely for me in the past. That time we were all uncermoniously dumped out at a whistle-stop border checkpoint and forced to carry our luggage past some guys in uniforms. I think some people got a quiz, though I did not. After an hour or two, they let us board a *different* train to complete the last little bit of our journey. That's the only border harassment I've experienced in Western Europe. Eastern Europe has been more interesting on occasion. Brad
participants (7)
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Alan Horowitz -
attila -
Brad Dolan -
hallam＠w3.org -
Jeff Barber -
Perry E. Metzger -
tcmay＠got.net