Re: UMich student arrested for rape story
From: "L. McCarthy" <lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu>
Rich Dutcher writes:
They *do* have to prove intent -- as to how, that's what juries are for. BTW, he used her real name in the post, with no disclaimers about fiction. From what I have heard, if he had said the same thing in her presence, he could have been arrested for assault.
Based on the NY Times article I've read, you're omitting some important extenuating circumstances here. For one thing, it was apparently posted to alt.sex.stories, which seems to obviate the use of "fictional" disclaimers. Furthermore, he did _not_ identify her as a UMich student.
Well, I was quoting a small AP story in a paper notorious for clipping articles short, so I knew that some [if not many] circumstances would be missing. In conversations today at Potlatch 4 I learned of other circumstances, albeit not necessarily what I would call "extenuating" ones. And the lawyers, of course, will be spin controlling from now until a verdict.
I don't see the relevance of "if he had said the same thing in her presence". He *didn't* ! There's an enormous difference between making a comment about a person to third parties, and making the comment to that person.
Not necessarily -- there's lots of case law that the threatened person need not be present to be threatened. The people present are still witnesses. I agree there's a difference, but its nature isn't obvious. Precisely what that difference is is up to judges, juries and [goddess help us!] legislators.
According to the NY Times story, the woman mentioned in the story only heard about it because reporters asked her about it ! I find a great deal of irony in the report that the controversy started because an alt.sex.stories reader in _Moscow_ tipped off the UMich authorities.
Irony noted and appreciated -- but it does illustrate the "public" nature of the forum.
It appears that the Russians are allowed to read erotic fiction, while the Americans are forbidden to read it, and get tossed in jail for writing it. We've come a long way, baby. Yeah.
-L. Futplex McCarthy
I was in high school while the Supremes [the real Supremes, with Earl Warren, not the bogus nostalgia group currently wearing the black robes] were doing the decisions that allowed Joyce and Lawrence to be sold in bookstores, and I was taught Shakespeare from a bowlderized edition of Romeo & Juliet. Trust me, we aren't in a place remotely like that now [not that there aren't plenty of people trying to get back there]. Which is not to say I'm complacent -- when I have money to spare from Green work, it goes to the ACLU. Eternal vigilance and all that. And this dude is entitled to presumption of innocence, a jury trial, and all the other paraphenalia of procedural liberty. However, given the information available to date, I see no reason to believe that he's been busted for writing "erotic fiction" rather than threatening a woman. Violence against women is too real, and in other contexts courts have held to a standard of what a "reasonable woman" might fear. BTW, does alt.sex.stories presume fiction, or is it pretend truth like the readers' sex stories in Penthouse?
Rich Dutcher writes:
However, given the information available to date, I see no reason to believe that he's been busted for writing "erotic fiction" rather than threatening a woman.
The July `94 issue of Harper's described the case of a Menlo Park city employee who claimed in 1993 to be harassed by some paintings of female nudes hanging in a hallway. The city removed the paintings the following day. It used to be that when the majority of people in some state/county/town disapproved of some instance of expression, they could suppress it. This was bad. Nowadays, it takes just one zealot to suppress it. This is much worse. As far as I can see, anyone can claim to be harassed/threatened/offended by just about anything, and get away with it. Just the other day, I heard that in Vermont (or was it New Hampshire ?), they're still talking seriously about an amendment to the state constitution against burning the U.S. flag. Between the censors on the left and the censors on the right, there's precious little room remaining for those of us in the middle who believe in tolerating divergent views. It appears to me that people on the left are choosing (wrongly, IMHO) to interpret a work of fiction as a threat, and proceed from there. I imagine that people on the right don't see the work of fiction as a threat to her, but simply want to ban fictional works they dislike anyway.
Violence against women is too real,
Strongly agreed, but a newsgroup article is not an act of violence.
and in other contexts courts have held to a standard of what a "reasonable woman" might fear.
Well, we'll have to see how it goes. It's tough for me to see why a "reasonable woman" would fear an article of which she was totally unaware. I get the impression that neither did he imply a threat, nor did she infer a threat.
BTW, does alt.sex.stories presume fiction, or is it pretend truth like the readers' sex stories in Penthouse?
I don't know for sure, though I expect alt.sex.wizards would be more likely to fall in the latter category :] . -L. Futplex McCarthy
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In list.cypherpunks, L. Futplex McCarthy writes:
It appears to me that people on the left are choosing (wrongly, IMHO) to interpret a work of fiction as a threat, and proceed from there. I imagine that people on the right don't see the work of fiction as a threat to her, but simply want to ban fictional works they dislike anyway.
Given the current "regulate the Internet" frenzy we're seeing almost everywhere, couldn't this be an example of grabbing a scapegoat? I see this whole deal as opportunistic, especially since the alleged victim of the "threat" appeared unaware that the "threat" had even been made. - -- Roy M. Silvernail -- roy@cybrspc.mn.org perl -e '$x = 1/20; print "Just my \$$x! (adjusted for inflation)\n"' "What do you mean, you've never been to Alpha Centauri?" -- Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.1 iQCVAwUBLz6g2hvikii9febJAQEi7AP+IuDcbHY/PjI7HC3j29jtHFiMbFIS5fdG 2c08NQgnjiA8ul3fsJUUcmQ/sdr0WxZrR0qIRTwzBoX1baVDr0POARn4DY/5TrbH Qmav0KW/kJQEqaX2uvu2MvdF5NFWiYlXB06ZysOhgHuj7wcAsCGyTwTpA5hpKmFj 3ZAP0vHuLaM= =iXE+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
participants (3)
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L. McCarthy -
Richard F. Dutcher -
roy＠cybrspc.mn.org