When they came for the Jews...
********* Citing ``the rapidly expanding presence of organized hate groups on the Internet,'' a leading Jewish human rights group [the Simon Wiesenthal Center] on Tuesday began sending letters to hundreds of Internet access providers and universities asking them to refuse to carry messages that ``promote racism, anti-Semitism, mayhem and violence.'' But Cooper said the ``unprecedented potential and scope of the Internet'' gives people ``incredible power to promote violence, threaten women, denigrate minorities, promote homophobia and conspire against democracy.'' He cited the posting of instructions for making explosive devices, including recipes for Sarin nerve gas and bombs similar to the one that destroyed the Federal Building in Oklahoma City last April 19. *********** In reading the above from today's NYT, I was interested to see the expansion of the protected classes who are not to have unkind things said about them on the Nets. Aside from the usual list of suspects, I noted that *democrats* were also to be protected. I thought that "conspiring against democracy" (something I do daily) was classic political speech and and activity that even the drafters of the American Constitution practiced from time to time. I guess I'm going to have to watch my attacks on democracy if I don't want to get my Net access cut off. DCF "I favor discrimination on the basis of race, creed, color sex, age, alienage, previous condition of servitude, recent interstate travel, handicap, sexual or affectional preference, marital status, Vietnam-era veteran status (or lack thereof), occupation, economic status, and anything else I can think of."
On Wed, 10 Jan 1996, Duncan Frissell wrote:
"I favor discrimination on the basis of race, creed, color sex, age, alienage, previous condition of servitude, recent interstate travel, handicap, sexual or affectional preference, marital status, Vietnam-era veteran status (or lack thereof), occupation, economic status, and anything else I can think of."
I really wish I had the original newspaper clipping so I correctly quote the column, but it went something like this: Here in Portland, Oregon, we used to have quite a problem with Nazi skinheads. Not that they are not around now, but then they were everywhere. Being that most of the city is white trash, you'd think it wouldn't have caused much of a ruckus if they were simply beating up minorities. But its been my personal experience that they would prefer beating up "fellow" whites instead. That, coupled with the murder of Saraw, seemed to stir things up against the skinheads. Anyhow, that's my background to it. The column didn't talk about that. It was this guy writing about the Banai Brith (spelling?) in Los Angeles getting critisism about gathering and keeping records on suspected skinheads. Turns out they got alot of that stuff from Portland's own Multnomah County Sheriff, who releases thier police reports as public information. So this reporter decided to get some of these reports, and some of the records that the banai brith were keeping, and printed some. Like I was saying, public opinion at the time was way against the skinheads, and I was more than a little irritated at the time at them because of the roving bands of punks that made life in MY city uncomfortable. So I read through each police report, really eating it up. "White male, (his name,) apprehended for distributing nazi literature." "White female, (her name,) questioned. Wearing a jacket with a swastika." Stuff like that. Then the reporter lowered the boom. He asked us in the reading audience to substitute "skinhead" and "nazi" with "hippy" or "communist," and see how we felt about that. This was a very unpopular position at the time, in a city hell bent on getting rid of these skinheads, but he made a good point with me. Maybe someone could tell me how I could get a hold of the original. The paper is the Oregonian. I could probably figure out the reporter's name...if I only had a brain. I'd love to post it. Again, flames are always welcomed, as I am home sick and could use the abuse. ______________________________________________________________________________ ______ T E K T R O N I X _ C P I D _ T E C H N I C A L _ S U P P O R T _______ / Voice: 1.800.835.6100 E-mail: support@colorprinters.tek.com Fax: 1.503.685.3063 WWW: www.tek.com BBS: 1.503.685.4504 E-World: Keyword Tektronix HAL: 1.503.682.7450 AOL: Keyword Tektronix Service: 1.800.835.6100 FTP: ftp.tek.com ______________________________________________________________________________
On Wed, 10 Jan 1996, Duncan Frissell wrote:
He cited the posting of instructions for making explosive devices, including recipes for Sarin nerve gas and bombs similar to the one that destroyed the Federal Building in Oklahoma City last April 19.
Sarin nerve gas? Can anyone find that URL? TIA,
On Thu, 11 Jan 1996, Lucky Green wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jan 1996, Duncan Frissell wrote:
He cited the posting of instructions for making explosive devices, including recipes for Sarin nerve gas and bombs similar to the one that destroyed the Federal Building in Oklahoma City last April 19.
Sarin nerve gas? Can anyone find that URL?
TIA,
You're kidding, right? With all the uncensored spiders out there, anybody can find anything in a second. Search for "sarin not japan not aum" to cut down on the noise. Here's two of the top ten from AltaVista. 1. For US Occupational Health and Safety Administration (OSHA) recommendations regarding Sarin (um... avoid?), see: http://www.skcinc.com/niosh/file_1424.html 2. Sorry, no detailed recipe, and it says "don't try this at home," but there is a bibliography, and the Stanford Libraries have four of the journals listed. From http://www.xmission.com/~seer/mcw/sarin.html Sarin is now known as "GB." It has several chemical names: 1-Methylethyl methylphosphonate, Isopropylhydrogen methylphosphonate or Isopropyl methylphosphonate. Note the word "isopropyl." One of the key ingredients of the Sarin made by AUM Shinrikyo is isopropyl alcohol. Altogether there are four ingredients in Sarin: phosphorus trichloride, sodium fluoride, isopropyl alcohol and acetonitrile. Its chemical structure is as follows: (H3C)2CHOPF(O)Me. Sarin is not the type of weapon that can be made in the home, it can only be manufactured in a laboratory, though very sophisticated equipment is not needed. It is extremely dangerous to manufacture and handle. It's a German invention. Here's a (mostly) German Bibliography. GMELINS HDB, 1965, P482; PHOSPHOR VERBINDUNGE, 1963, V1, P433; PHOSPHOR ERBINDUNGE, 1964, V2, P27; 810930, 1959, CHILDS AF; ARBUSOV A, 1902, P1639; CHEM ZENTR BOOTH HS, 1939, V61, P2927; J AM CHEM SOC; BRAUER G, 1975, P209; HDB PRAPARATIVEN ANO; BRYANT PJR, 1960, P1553, J CHEM SOC; DEBORST C, 1972, V27, P305, TNO NIEUWS; FORDMOORE AH, 1951, V31, P33, ORGANIC SYNTHESES; FRANKE S, 1976, V1, LEHRBUCH MILITARCHEM; FRANKE S, 1976, V2, LEHRBUCH MILITARCHEM; KUHN SJ, 1962, V40, P1951, CAN J CHEM; LORQUET JC, 1959, V68, P336, B SOC CHIM BELG; SAMMET R, 1983, THESIS ETH ZURICH; SASS S, 1979, V14, P257, ORG MASS SPECTROM; SCHRADER G, 1963, ENTWICKLUNG NEUER IN; TAMMELIN LE, 1957, V11, P1340, ACTA CHEM SCAND; WASER PG, 1983, CHOLINERGE PHARMAKON; WASER PG, 1975, CHOLINERGIC MECHANIS; WASER PG, 1986, P157, DISCOVERIES PHARM; WASER PG, 1986, P743, DYNAMICS CHOLINERGIC.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- An entity calling itself Duncan Frissel is alleged to have written:
"I favor discrimination on the basis of race, creed, color sex, age, alienage, previous condition of servitude, recent interstate travel, handicap, sexual or affectional preference, marital status, Vietnam-era veteran status (or lack thereof), occupation, economic status, and anything else I can think of."
"Color sex"? Oh nevermind... Bryce, Just Another Conspirator Against Democracy signatures follow "To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield." -Tennyson <a href="http://www.c2.org/~bryce/Niche.html"> bryce@colorado.edu </a> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Auto-signed under Unix with 'BAP' Easy-PGP v1.01 iQCVAwUBMPWCMfWZSllhfG25AQGcIwQAq8x9Cf8DfbPHcGVodfC7pyB5Jv+0RqUr 6kJ+fN1lA329OSdFOViFQc1rDlZd/OroLXn5Sgfw1nmx0+zfYLRlxrW3iScFtHDT C2PsNLBeUvqhf/zurnRSk0sX1ehdrNywGfuw6R0fWAGLKqaxXw7Kpntc88ZMVG/6 7ZEjb9j9Etw= =W3DD -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Is there some way I can get a copy of this letter? Is it directed at specific ISPs or ISPs in general? An open response, publicized, to this sounds like something I could do. Publicity is fun.
********* Citing ``the rapidly expanding presence of organized hate groups on the Internet,'' a leading Jewish human rights group [the Simon Wiesenthal Center] on Tuesday began sending letters to hundreds of Internet access providers and universities asking them to refuse to carry messages that ``promote racism, anti-Semitism, mayhem and violence.''
But Cooper said the ``unprecedented potential and scope of the Internet'' gives people ``incredible power to promote violence, threaten women, denigrate minorities, promote homophobia and conspire against democracy.''
He cited the posting of instructions for making explosive devices, including recipes for Sarin nerve gas and bombs similar to the one that destroyed the Federal Building in Oklahoma City last April 19. ***********
In reading the above from today's NYT, I was interested to see the expansion of the protected classes who are not to have unkind things said about them on the Nets. Aside from the usual list of suspects, I noted that *democrats* were also to be protected. I thought that "conspiring against democracy" (something I do daily) was classic political speech and and activity that even the drafters of the American Constitution practiced from time to time. I guess I'm going to have to watch my attacks on democracy if I don't want to get my Net access cut off.
DCF
"I favor discrimination on the basis of race, creed, color sex, age, alienage, previous condition of servitude, recent interstate travel, handicap, sexual or affectional preference, marital status, Vietnam-era veteran status (or lack thereof), occupation, economic status, and anything else I can think of."
-- Sameer Parekh Voice: 510-601-9777x3 Community ConneXion FAX: 510-601-9734 The Internet Privacy Provider Dialin: 510-658-6376 http://www.c2.org/ (or login as "guest") sameer@c2.org
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Citing ``the rapidly expanding presence of organized hate groups on the Internet,'' a leading Jewish human rights group [the Simon Wiesenthal Center] on Tuesday began sending letters to hundreds of Internet access providers and universities asking them to refuse to carry messages that ``promote racism, anti-Semitism, mayhem and violence.''
But Cooper said the ``unprecedented potential and scope of the Internet'' gives people ``incredible power to promote violence, threaten women, denigrate minorities, promote homophobia and conspire against democracy.''
The SWC has a Web site http://www.wiesenthal.com, but there's no sign of the letter on it right now. They do have a web-form survey on Hate on the Internet, which I filled out for kicks. The CyberWatch section of their site is the sort of place that says (and I quote) "Is there anything that can be done?". <sigh> Their "CyberWatch Perspective" http://www.wiesenthal.com/watch/wpers.htm attacks anonymity on the net in a couple of places. Here are some relevant excerpts: - ---------------- "An incident in Texas highlights yet another advantage the information superhighway gives bigots - anonymity and deniability. Witness the recent equivalent of a hi-tech hate drive-by in Texas: Someone broke into the electronic mail account of a professor and fired off a virulent anti-black and anti-Semitic attack to 20,000 computer users in four states. The attack was authored by the National Alliance, whose leader simply denied sending the message. Its source was a convenient "anonymous I.D."" [...] "Hateful speech is, in general, "protected speech," but is there any reason why, at a minimum, a recipient of any unsolicited and threatening message from the superhighway should not have the right to know instantly the source of the message? Right now, the Internet, in effect, provides stealth technology for bigots, child pornographers and the like. Accountability, not anonymity, should be the operative principle." - ----------------- No big surprise to see these folks come out against free speech in a new medium. Too bad they're utterly blind to the lessons of the history they've documented so well. Futplex <futplex@pseudonym.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMPP1jSnaAKQPVHDZAQEl4Qf+JUnC0XFqFvpHZ9YGlb5fW+EnsQ8gTJ4C 0for1k8zbCiR0iCL39E1a1I/SSD1LidjAPPuaaDHqORsf4ixlTIP59+Uxi5LK6GH P9mwMViehs/OflmJrpC087UfRGsrd/KTnYeLRX4g773zsPCcChEjpj7LxYmLfZYV 1jsZBNwY+JoWEriPL9Hx/hMiJ11xY2f5RkeBp9rP6nKHvYQab365cKOcVA3DYt82 jG15jEw9p7Ub96gown1aJasr9GEj4DYkUzL74I6/0ewxqHVC8KEmdg5PdpxAJUkI Lx2GLneBSWUqN1eGvXS2oW2PZ3A2kQ7P8Eoi7w3l7M94jsktELrfmA== =AsJw -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
The Wiesenthal center is very influential in Jewish circles. Attacking them directly would probably be a bad idea, and create bad associations for anonymity amongst Jews. (I'll come back to this.) As always, the best answer to bad speech is more speech. Ken McVay, and his Nizkor project, (http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca) have been involved in fighting hate speech, holocaust revisionism, and the like for long time through archiving the big lies that revisionists pump out, documenting the bogosity of their footnotes, showing their contradictions, etc. Pointing out this, and other net resources fighting anti-semitism is a much cleaner approach than attacking the Wiesenthal center. Someone noted the police stopping skinheads in Oregon-- I'll point out that there is a substantial difference between talking and randomly beating the crap out of people. The later is a fair basis for action by police, although we may choose to question their methodology. There is also a difference between stopping skinheads and stopping blacks, in that the skinheads decided to wear clothing and tattoos that identify them as skinheads, and thus may more fairly be asked to bear the consequences. Another approach might be to talk about the concept of identity, and how dangerous mandating identity cards and papers can be. Jews in Germany were tracked down via phone records, bank records, membership lists of organizations (a lesson probably noted by the NAACP in refusing to give Alabama its membership rolls, leading to a supreme court case upholding the right of anonymous association.) At the last CFP, Hugh Daniels was distributing buttons with a bar code on the that said things like 'Is your Jew bit set?' and 'Is your gay bit set?' Proposals to require everyone to have ID are a slippery slope leading to a police state. Jews of all people should know better. sameer wrote: | | | Is there some way I can get a copy of this letter? Is it | directed at specific ISPs or ISPs in general? An open response, | publicized, to this sounds like something I could do. Publicity is | fun. | > Citing ``the rapidly expanding presence of organized hate groups on the | > Internet,'' a leading Jewish human rights group [the Simon Wiesenthal | > Center] on Tuesday began sending letters to hundreds of Internet access | > providers and universities asking them to refuse to carry messages that | > ``promote racism, anti-Semitism, mayhem and violence.'' -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume
Adam Shostack <adam@lighthouse.homeport.org> said: AS> The Wiesenthal center is very influential in Jewish circles. AS> Attacking them directly would probably be a bad idea, and create bad AS> associations for anonymity amongst Jews. (I'll come back to this.) AS> As always, the best answer to bad speech is more speech. Ken McVay, AS> and his Nizkor project, (http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca) have been AS> involved in fighting hate speech, holocaust revisionism, and the AS> like for long time through archiving the big lies that revisionists AS> pump out, documenting the bogosity of their footnotes, showing their AS> contradictions, etc. Pointing out this, and other net resources AS> fighting anti-semitism is a much cleaner approach than attacking the AS> Wiesenthal center. Isn't this attacking, or at least opposing, them directly? AS> Someone noted the police stopping skinheads in Oregon-- I'll point AS> out that there is a substantial difference between talking and AS> randomly beating the crap out of people. The later is a fair basis AS> for action by police, although we may choose to question their AS> methodology. There is also a difference between stopping skinheads AS> and stopping blacks, in that the skinheads decided to wear clothing AS> and tattoos that identify them as skinheads, and thus may more AS> fairly be asked to bear the consequences. This is known as the "[S]he asked for it" argument, a widely discredited defense. If their _behavior_ doesn't indicate criminal behavior, and there isn't a report of a crime with suspects meeting their descriptions, there is no more excuse for hassling them than there is for hassling blacks, or hispanics, or.... Who knows, they could actually be a bunch of Marines (depending on the area). AS> Another approach might be to talk about the concept of identity, and AS> how dangerous mandating identity cards and papers can be. Jews in AS> Germany were tracked down via phone records, bank records, AS> membership lists of organizations (a lesson probably noted by the AS> NAACP in refusing to give Alabama its membership rolls, leading to a AS> supreme court case upholding the right of anonymous association.) And more recently used in Texas by the KKK, represented by a black (given the organization defended, I think that the race of the attorney is relevant) attorney from the ACLU. The attorney was subsequently removed as the counsel for the Texas chapter of the NAACP. -- #include <disclaimer.h> /* Sten Drescher */ 1973 Steelers About Three Bricks Shy of a Load 1994 Steelers 1974 Steelers And the Load Filled Up 1995 Steelers? To get my PGP public key, send me email with your public key and Subject: PGP key exchange Key fingerprint = 90 5F 1D FD A6 7C 84 5E A9 D3 90 16 B2 44 C4 F3 Unsolicited email advertisements will be proofread for a US$100 fee.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Adam Shostack writes:
There is also a difference between stopping skinheads and stopping blacks, in that the skinheads decided to wear clothing and tattoos that identify them as skinheads, and thus may more fairly be asked to bear the consequences.
Sorry, but from where I stand there's nothing "wrong" with wearing clothing, bearing tattoos, etc., any more than there's anything "wrong" with having a particular level of skin pigmentation. When you decide that only clothing, tattoos, etc. that display particular colors, emblems, words, etc. are "wrong", then you are stifling free expression. This is very similar to the absurd flag burning "issue". (I would laugh, but both houses of the U.S. Congress came damn close to passing the proposed Constitutional amendment just a few weeks ago, although I thought the matter was long dead.) When they decide that burning a piece of cloth _with a particular emblem on it_ is "wrong", they rip up the First Amendment all over again. I happen to think that going around burning pieces of cloth is a bad idea from an environmental standpoint, but it's not clear that even that should be illegal, let alone unconstitutional. Futplex <futplex@pseudonym.com> "Freedom...oh freedom...that's just some people talking" -Eagles -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMPQ07SnaAKQPVHDZAQGnZQf+J+23cD39BAaGl1KZZJJTNu4DMPRxNLq8 E+E/f2MBV7BVlBrOBJqUL1uzyBDuJm9eI+jjcxXbBWZzL64ER7pOM82gdNHZcElh xcgCswgX0FZ2iLcWN8cRAbaDq9QgilTvEzQjszLWVwTVQilZsncSLkNPdTGcSHwY X5ku3cim7N4Z3aHYt+dpozoLkYCyJDHJOQ82jUioszXVY8fTyqxm3zurzzkNQpgp 9Fd9bJdp/LttIs6uJ1sH9cJVvhb44YfyOwIJJAaYXeRo3p2UOgmHvj0ZSEf9jHXk qandwt8sAsStZ84RYZUWx66YitoRIhx/w2TQdLKqM54pQua9KMujeg== =XyED -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
A city in Illinois (I forget the name at the moment) enacted a law against clothing color combinations favored by gangs. Ironically the local high school colors were included on the list. Things can get real scarey real fast. Jay Holovacs <holovacs@ios.com> PGP Key fingerprint = AC 29 C8 7A E4 2D 07 27 AE CA 99 4A F6 59 87 90 (KEY id 1024/80E4AA05) email me for key On Wed, 10 Jan 1996, Futplex wrote:
Sorry, but from where I stand there's nothing "wrong" with wearing clothing, bearing tattoos, etc., any more than there's anything "wrong" with having a particular level of skin pigmentation. When you decide that only clothing, tattoos, etc. that display particular colors, emblems, words, etc. are "wrong", then you are stifling free expression.
On Wed, 10 Jan 1996, Futplex wrote:
Adam Shostack writes:
There is also a difference between stopping skinheads and stopping blacks, in that the skinheads decided to wear clothing and tattoos that identify them as skinheads, and thus may more fairly be asked to bear the consequences.
Sorry, but from where I stand there's nothing "wrong" with wearing clothing, bearing tattoos, etc., any more than there's anything "wrong" with having a particular level of skin pigmentation. When you decide that only clothing, tattoos, etc. that display particular colors, emblems, words, etc. are "wrong", then you are stifling free expression.
guess I dare not to go to Portland.... age 55, no grey hairs on a full head to past my shoulder blades, full reddish brown beard with some white in it past my neck (what there is of it <g>), 300 lb gorilla with tattoo of the "Ace of Swords" on left arm, dressed in all black whether t-shirt/jeans or hand-tailored suit, and black leather flat rim "assassin's" hat... often seen arriving on a big bore outlaw chopper. Considered armed and dangerous.... oh, I almost forgot: with an attitude....
Futplex <futplex@pseudonym.com> "Freedom...oh freedom...that's just some people talking" -Eagles
__________________________________________________________________________ go not unto usenet for advice, for the inhabitants thereof will say: yes, and no, and maybe, and I don't know, and fuck-off. _________________________________________________________________ attila__
The Wiesenthal center is very influential in Jewish circles.
That's very unfortunate, considering how fascist they are.
Attacking them directly would probably be a bad idea, and create bad associations for anonymity amongst Jews. (I'll come back to this.)
You make very good points though. I'll have to stress the benefits of not preventing hate speech rather than just saying that it's impossible to prevent. -- Sameer Parekh Voice: 510-601-9777x3 Community ConneXion FAX: 510-601-9734 The Internet Privacy Provider Dialin: 510-658-6376 http://www.c2.org/ (or login as "guest") sameer@c2.org
sameer wrote: | | | Is there some way I can get a copy of this letter? Is it | directed at specific ISPs or ISPs in general? An open response, | publicized, to this sounds like something I could do. Publicity is | fun. | > Citing ``the rapidly expanding presence of organized hate groups on the | > Internet,'' a leading Jewish human rights group [the Simon Wiesenthal | > Center] on Tuesday began sending letters to hundreds of Internet access | > providers and universities asking them to refuse to carry messages that | > ``promote racism, anti-Semitism, mayhem and violence.'' As of the current time, we haven't received this letter (via postmaster@umn.edu or root@umn.edu). Anyone know where it might be coming from, i.e. @wiesenthal.com or something similar? -- Kevin L. Prigge |"Have you ever gotten tired of hearing those UofM Central Computing | ridiculous AT&T commercials claiming credit email: klp@tc.umn.edu | for things that don't even exist yet? 010010011101011001100010| You will." -Emmanuel Goldstein
Citing ``the rapidly expanding presence of organized hate groups on the Internet,'' a leading Jewish human rights group [the Simon Wiesenthal Center] on Tuesday began sending letters to hundreds of Internet access providers and universities asking them to refuse to carry messages that ``promote racism, anti-Semitism, mayhem and violence.''
This is really unfortunate. Many well intentioned people often forget that groups like the Nazis did more than simply bombard the public with hate speech -- they suppressed opposing points of view. The problem isn't that the haters were able to speak their minds, the problem was that the reasonable people were unable to respond. Censorship is an essential component of totalitarianism, while free speech is fundamentally incompatible with it. There is a marketplace of ideas, and our goal ought to be to make sure that marketplace has integrity, that the rules are fair. Anti-semitic ideas aren't going to succeed in the marketplace because they're wrong, which is to say that arguments which try to prove anti-semitic points will always contain logical and factual errors. Once you start interferring with the market by restricting what can be said, you run into at least two important problems. First of all, you open yourself up to the possibility that some good ideas will be unable to emerge from the debate. The nazis suppressed speech, for example, and solid arguments against their positions weren't able to emerge. The second problem is more subtle, and it happens all the time in this country: people lose confidence in the market. I've spoken with people who believe, for example, that black people are inherently dumber than white people. If you ask these people for proof, they say that it's being suppressed. In a sense they're right: arguments that blacks are dumber than whites are suppressed, not by law, but informally. But *proof* isn't being suppressed, because proof doesn't exist. The suppression of arguments gives people an out in their own minds, and it allows them to cling to some silly notions. Supression of an argument also ends up eliminating the rebuttal, and when you're dealing with hate speech the rebuttal is always more powerful than the argument. If you can win a fair fight, why do you need to cheat?
If anyone is interested, here is the URL for the Simon Wiesenthal Center's cyberwatch (dedicated to fighting hatred and bigotry around the globe): http://www.wiesenthal.com/watch/index.html -James
participants (14)
-
Adam Shostack -
Alex Strasheim -
attila -
Bryce -
Duncan Frissell -
futplex＠pseudonym.com -
grimm＠MIT.EDU -
Jay Holovacs -
Kent Dahlgren -
Kevin L Prigge -
Lucky Green -
Rich Graves -
sameer -
Sten Drescher