RE: The American money capture
From: Hal Finney & Eric Hughes
(Today, with our experiences of inflation in the 1970's and 1980's, it is hard for us to appreciate the problems with deflation. But I think deflation was much worse.
The Great Depression was pretty clearly caused by deflation in the money supply. To quote Milton Friedman: "All told, from July 1929 to March 1933, the money stock in the United States fell by one-third [...]" Capitalism and Freedom, p. 50 .................................................... Would it be too complex and lengthy an explanation to provide to say how the money supply is decided in the first place; that is, how an appropriate amount of it is calculated initially? Is this in reference to the gold or other backing which gives each dollar its monetary value? Blanc
The money supply dwindled 1: by the accumulation of capital in the hands of a few 2: the immediate fiscal policy of the govt which also sucked money out of the economy.... On Mon, 2 May 1994, Blanc Weber wrote:
From: Hal Finney & Eric Hughes
(Today, with our experiences of inflation in the 1970's and 1980's, it is hard for us to appreciate the problems with deflation. But I think deflation was much worse.
The Great Depression was pretty clearly caused by deflation in the money supply. To quote Milton Friedman:
"All told, from July 1929 to March 1933, the money stock in the United States fell by one-third [...]" Capitalism and Freedom, p. 50 ....................................................
Would it be too complex and lengthy an explanation to provide to say how the money supply is decided in the first place; that is, how an appropriate amount of it is calculated initially? Is this in reference to the gold or other backing which gives each dollar its monetary value?
Blanc
**************************************************************************** Qjones@infi.net She kissed me- I felt the hot blush * * Qjones@larry.wyvern.com Of raging passion incinerate my heart * ****************************************************************************
C'punks, On Mon, 2 May 1994, Wayne Q Jones wrote:
The money supply dwindled 1: by the accumulation of capital in the hands of a few 2: the immediate fiscal policy of the govt which also sucked money out of the economy....
Wrong. Wayne's "1:" explanation is pure Scrooge McDuck thinking. The "few" do not "accumulate" capital in the sense Wayne fears (i.e., in Scrooge McDuck's undergroung vault). They collect it, spend it, invest it, deposit it in the bank, whatever; but it still keeps circulating. If anything, such activity expands the money supply. I'm not sure I (nor Wayne) know what he actually meant by his #"2:" assertion. Perhaps he will elucidate. S a n d y
Blanc Weber says:
Would it be too complex and lengthy an explanation to provide to say how the money supply is decided in the first place; that is, how an appropriate amount of it is calculated initially? Is this in reference to the gold or other backing which gives each dollar its monetary value?
The explanation would certainly be of interest to some, but I would suggest asking on sci.econ, rather than here on cypherpunks. I don't want to sound like a wet blanket, but there ARE forums for discussing this sort of thing. Hell, I'll happily answer the question, too, if asked -- in PRIVATE email. Perry
Blanc Weber wrote:
Would it be too complex and lengthy an explanation to provide to say how the money supply is decided in the first place; that is, how an appropriate amount of it is calculated initially? Is this in reference to the gold or other backing which gives each dollar its monetary value?
Gee that's like asking, is it too complex and lengthy to explain how crpyto works? But here goes. I'm posting this purely in regards to how it relates to digital money and how value can be given to it. In it's simplest form money is simply debits and credits kept on certain ledgers. Let me present the most simple example. Alice has a supply of money. Let's say a $1000. She deposits this in her favourite bank. The bank then lends the money to Bob. Alice has $1000, and now Bob has $1000. The supply of money is now $2000. Bob then spends the $1000, he borrowed. The seller deposits this, which the bank then relends, and on and on. So money grows, and grows, eventually becoming valueless. Central banks try to limit growth by using interest rates to reduce the demand for money, and by requiring banks to post reserves with their central bank on their deposits. This theoretically keeps a cap on money growth. If the central bank raises the reserve rate the banks have less money to lend, since they must post their reserves not just on new money, but on old money that they've already lent out. So if Alice deposits $1000, and there's a reserve rate of 10%, then only $900 can be lent, and then $810, and then $729, as the money makes it's way through the economy. The central banks can also control interest rates, and reduce the demand for money or vice versa. Since a change in reserve rates, affects not only new deposits, but old deposits as well, it's a very powerful instrument. Unfortunately, (and this is where it really gets interesting, there are no reserve requirements in international money centers, with London being the center of most of this money. These funds are called Euro-Funds, and the interest quoted is the London Inter Bank Offer Rate. (LIBOR). Most of the growth of money occurred, here during the 1970's, when OPEC put the world into shell shock with their sudden increase in the oil price. OPEC nations had billions of dollars which they deposited in London. These funds were then relent primarily to nations, which then spent the money on *projects*. (Marcos comes to mind, as well as Brazil and the destruction of the rain forests, but I digress) The problem of course is that since these funds are non-domestic. Domestic central banks can't control them. It's a free for all. So the money went around, and around, growing and growing, until it slowly became worthless. The only thing that keeps money growth in check is market discipline and faith. The whole house of cards doesn't come tumbling down, because Alice has faith that she has $1000. In reality the emperor has no clothes. No, most major currencies are not on the Gold Standard. They float purely in relation to other currencies. So what gives money it's value? Purely, the loans which back it up. This is why it is practically impossible to stop, eco-disasters from continuing. If the countries that have "borrowed" this money default, the whole thing collapses. It collapses everywhere, simultaneously. Now we get to the problem with digital money. It's a stand alone system with no "faith" in it and with no growth built in. Faith is the only thing that keeps things working, that and legislating paper as legal tender, so people are forced to accept it. Obviously, legislating digital money as legal tender is outside our power. Putting growth into the system without destroying faith is also very difficult. The only logical step is to make digital money repesent something. It must be convertable into something that people already have faith in. Otherwise I fear, that digital money may not fly. -- Istvan
participants (5)
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Blanc Weber -
Istvan Oszaraz von Keszi -
Perry E. Metzger -
Sandy Sandfort -
Wayne Q Jones