spooks on cypherpunks
NetSurfer <jdwilson@gold.chem.hawaii.edu> Robert Mathews <mathews@gold.chem.hawaii.edu> be aware
From: nobody@jarthur.cs.hmc.edu Date: Thu Apr 28 00:36:57 PDT 1994 NetSurfer <jdwilson@gold.chem.hawaii.edu> Robert Mathews <mathews@gold.chem.hawaii.edu> be aware Sorry, but this is no help. It's impossible to distinguish Agents Provocateur from merely incompetent people. You need to deal with the latter, and so the former fall out in the wash. If the cypherpunk movement is to be an effective non-violent force, it must realize that secrecy is no help. The best designed action will work even if your enemy helps you plan it and carry it out. Karn's CJR is an example of this. -russ <nelson@crynwr.com> ftp.msen.com:pub/vendor/crynwr/crynwr.wav Crynwr Software | Crynwr Software sells packet driver support | ask4 PGP key 11 Grant St. | +1 315 268 1925 (9201 FAX) | Quakers do it in the light Potsdam, NY 13676 | LPF member - ask me about the harm software patents do.
Russell Nelson says:
Sorry, but this is no help. It's impossible to distinguish Agents Provocateur from merely incompetent people. You need to deal with the latter, and so the former fall out in the wash.
If the cypherpunk movement is to be an effective non-violent force, it must realize that secrecy is no help. The best designed action will work even if your enemy helps you plan it and carry it out. Karn's CJR is an example of this.
Frankly, I agree. The NSA and the rest are roughly in the position of the Eastern block dictatorships a few years ago. There is basically nothing they can do to maintain their position. They have no mechanism available. With the arrival of good cryptographic techniques in the open literature they were basically given a death sentence. Anyone with a computer and some brains can now do lots of stuff they don't like, and there isn't anything they can do about it no matter how much they would like. They will search desperately for some miracle to save them, but there isn't going to be one. Even were they to succeed in getting lots of laws in place, there would be no way to enforce them where it counts the most -- the criminals will not obey, and the technology is easy for them to get. We need no secrecy. We need only keep doing what we are doing: looking for more and more ways to attack them in the legal system, pointing out how silly they look in the press, and writing more code. There is virtually nothing they can do no matter how much they like. The NSA will either adapt or die -- it seems to be trying to die right now rather than adapt, but thats not our problem. Frankly, I'm happier if they are watching. It tells us that we are worth looking at. Perry
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com Reply-To: perry@imsi.com X-Reposting-Policy: redistribute only with permission Date: Thu, 28 Apr 1994 13:32:10 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry@snark.imsi.com> Russell Nelson says:
Sorry, but this is no help. It's impossible to distinguish Agents Provocateur from merely incompetent people. You need to deal with the latter, and so the former fall out in the wash.
If the cypherpunk movement is to be an effective non-violent force, it must realize that secrecy is no help. The best designed action will work even if your enemy helps you plan it and carry it out. Karn's CJR is an example of this.
Frankly, I agree. <gasp!> That's a [my] change from a few years ago, eh? The NSA will either adapt or die -- it seems to be trying to die right now rather than adapt, but thats not our problem. Cautionary note here, Perry. People who feel that have no choices often don't care if the only choice they see is a bad one. Hitler [yeah, yeah, I know] convinced the German people that all their choices were bad, but his was best. They killed a few people -- it was in all the papers at the time. What can crypto do to counteract fascism? Especially given that crypto will be used as an excuse for said fascism. You could argue that it is already, but if you'll notice, the public reasoning for Clipper never includes "Clipper exists to displace ubiquitious public key crypto". -russ <nelson@crynwr.com> ftp.msen.com:pub/vendor/crynwr/crynwr.wav Crynwr Software | Crynwr Software sells packet driver support | ask4 PGP key 11 Grant St. | +1 315 268 1925 (9201 FAX) | Quakers do it in the light Potsdam, NY 13676 | LPF member - ask me about the harm software patents do.
Russell Nelson says:
The NSA will either adapt or die -- it seems to be trying to die right now rather than adapt, but thats not our problem.
Cautionary note here, Perry. People who feel that have no choices often don't care if the only choice they see is a bad one. Hitler [yeah, yeah, I know] convinced the German people that all their choices were bad, but his was best. They killed a few people -- it was in all the papers at the time.
Naturally, they won't take things lying down. It is certainly in our interest to make sure that they don't cause trouble, especially bad trouble, during their demise. (Actually, I don't think they will stop existing, just that they will have to accept that their work IS going to be hard from now on and leave it at that.) My point is merely that they have no real choice in the matter -- just as a congressman falling out a window can shout at the law of gravity all he wants, and threaten legal action, to no effect, so the NSA can pretend that it can restrict the growth of private sector cryptography but it is already too late. You can't stop people from learning something they already know. Perry
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com Reply-To: perry@imsi.com X-Reposting-Policy: redistribute only with permission Date: Thu, 28 Apr 1994 13:32:10 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry@snark.imsi.com>
Russell Nelson says:
Sorry, but this is no help. It's impossible to distinguish Agents Provocateur from merely incompetent people. You need to deal with the latter, and so the former fall out in the wash.
If the cypherpunk movement is to be an effective non-violent force, it must realize that secrecy is no help. The best designed action will work even if your enemy helps you plan it and carry it out. Karn's CJR is an example of this.
Frankly, I agree.
<gasp!> That's a [my] change from a few years ago, eh?
The NSA will either adapt or die -- it seems to be trying to die right now rather than adapt, but thats not our problem.
Cautionary note here, Perry. People who feel that have no choices often don't care if the only choice they see is a bad one. Hitler [yeah, yeah, I know] convinced the German people that all their choices were bad, but his was best. They killed a few people -- it was in all the papers at the time.
Concur. Confront them with annihilation, and they will then survive; plunge them into a deadly situation, and they will then live. When people fall into danger, they are then able to strive for victory. -Sun Tzu
What can crypto do to counteract fascism? Especially given that crypto will be used as an excuse for said fascism. You could argue that it is already, but if you'll notice, the public reasoning for Clipper never includes "Clipper exists to displace ubiquitious public key crypto".
Crypto defies fascism when it is widespread and solid in the citizenry. If enslavement is the ability to stifle speech, crypto is the liberator.
-russ <nelson@crynwr.com> ftp.msen.com:pub/vendor/crynwr/crynwr.wav Crynwr Software | Crynwr Software sells packet driver support | ask4 PGP key 11 Grant St. | +1 315 268 1925 (9201 FAX) | Quakers do it in the light Potsdam, NY 13676 | LPF member - ask me about the harm software patents do.
I think the dismissal of the NSA is premature. I think the rumors of the NSA's death are greatly exaggerated. I think the focus on the NSA in this group over looks more dangerous threats. Crypto helps, but it's not the end all. Why ask for trouble on the assumption that the intelligence agencies are fighting a losing battle? Especially when the assumption is dubious. Digitel and Clipper could turn the tide very quickly. Perhaps a more public NSA and FBI could be more dangerous to liberty than hidden ones? It's certainly much easier to apply influence in public than in secret and behind the scenes. I'm not sure how much the NSA needs to adapt here. I'm not sure those who would resist centralism and regulation WANT the NSA to adapt. Considering the way in which AT&T fell into line I wonder how poorly the NSA, and the administration, are doing. If anyone doubts that the administration and more importantly, the Congress, still finds use for intelligence agencies try to get a copy of today's M&L news hour. (4/28/94) Foreknowledge cannot be gotten from ghosts and spirits, cannot be had by analogy, cannot be found out by calculation. It must be obtained from people, people who know the conditions of the enemy. - Sun Tzu
the public reasoning for Clipper never includes "Clipper exists to displace ubiquitious public key crypto".
That's because it won't. Public key techniques will still be used for key management and authentication. The problem with Clipper is that one will have no secrecy with respect to any sufficiently powerful entity, using the government as a vector. Eric
On Thu, 28 Apr 1994, Russell Nelson wrote:
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 94 10:20 EDT From: Russell Nelson <nelson@crynwr.com> To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: spooks on cypherpunks
From: nobody@jarthur.cs.hmc.edu Date: Thu Apr 28 00:36:57 PDT 1994
NetSurfer <jdwilson@gold.chem.hawaii.edu> Robert Mathews <mathews@gold.chem.hawaii.edu>
be aware
Sorry, but this is no help. It's impossible to distinguish Agents Provocateur from merely incompetent people. You need to deal with the latter, and so the former fall out in the wash.
If the cypherpunk movement is to be an effective non-violent force, it must realize that secrecy is no help. The best designed action will work even if your enemy helps you plan it and carry it out. Karn's CJR is an example of this.
-russ <nelson@crynwr.com> ftp.msen.com:pub/vendor/crynwr/crynwr.wav Crynwr Software | Crynwr Software sells packet driver support | ask4 PGP key 11 Grant St. | +1 315 268 1925 (9201 FAX) | Quakers do it in the light Potsdam, NY 13676 | LPF member - ask me about the harm software patents do.
I contest and resent either incorrect nametag. -Jim -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.4 mQBNAi2Ig+EAAAECALImsR18LE9I6NKICf8TVhbV6yJgF95ynGHnWnNo1ERfdqzk Zl3Icl2N5klNM3KQ9zM3uN/z55smi2QOiD3hL80ABRO0L0phbWVzIEQuIFdpbHNv biA8amR3aWxzb25AZ29sZC5jaGVtLmhhd2FpaS5lZHU+ =JTj1 -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- ................................ . == = = James D. Wilson. . " " " P. O. Box 15432............................. . " " /\ " Honolulu, HI 96830-5432......Fr. Excelsior........ . \" "/ \" jdwilson@gold.chem.hawaii.edu.FRC/FAM/AASR/GWB/OTO. ...................................................................
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 1994 18:04:48 -1000 (HST) From: NetSurfer <jdwilson@gold.chem.hawaii.edu> On Thu, 28 Apr 1994, Russell Nelson wrote:
Sorry, but this is no help. It's impossible to distinguish Agents Provocateur from merely incompetent people. You need to deal with the latter, and so the former fall out in the wash.
I contest and resent either incorrect nametag. I didn't mean *you*. Cut back on the caffine. -russ <nelson@crynwr.com> ftp.msen.com:pub/vendor/crynwr/crynwr.wav Crynwr Software | Crynwr Software sells packet driver support | ask4 PGP key 11 Grant St. | +1 315 268 1925 (9201 FAX) | Quakers do it in the light Potsdam, NY 13676 | LPF member - ask me about the harm software patents do.
I suggest that you not make accusations unless you are sure of your facts. Neither I nor Mr. Mathews work for ANY government intelligence (isn't that an oxymoron?) or other type agency. My only interest in ADP security is that which helps me protect systems I manage from attack, both internal and external. L8rs -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.4 mQBNAi2Ig+EAAAECALImsR18LE9I6NKICf8TVhbV6yJgF95ynGHnWnNo1ERfdqzk Zl3Icl2N5klNM3KQ9zM3uN/z55smi2QOiD3hL80ABRO0L0phbWVzIEQuIFdpbHNv biA8amR3aWxzb25AZ29sZC5jaGVtLmhhd2FpaS5lZHU+ =JTj1 -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- ................................ . == = = James D. Wilson. . " " " P. O. Box 15432............................. . " " /\ " Honolulu, HI 96830-5432......Fr. Excelsior........ . \" "/ \" jdwilson@gold.chem.hawaii.edu.FRC/FAM/AASR/GWB/OTO. ................................................................... On Thu, 28 Apr -1 nobody@jarthur.cs.hmc.edu wrote:
Date: Thu Apr 28 00:36:57 PDT 1994 From:nobody@jarthur.cs.hmc.edu To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: spooks on cypherpunks
NetSurfer <jdwilson@gold.chem.hawaii.edu> Robert Mathews <mathews@gold.chem.hawaii.edu>
be aware
participants (6)
-
Black Unicorn -
hughes＠ah.com -
nelson＠crynwr.com -
NetSurfer -
nobody＠jarthur.cs.hmc.edu -
Perry E. Metzger