"This is not Coderpunks--we don't need no steenking cryptography!"
At 6:51 PM 2/21/96, Peter Monta wrote:
Cypherpunks used to be a place where I could fairly reliably see high-SNR commentary from real cryptographers/number theorists. Now we have the blind replying to the blind's obfuscatory nonsense, and the useful posts take some effort to find.
I believe this is why the "real cryptographers/number theorists" are now supposed to post to "Coderpunks." While I agree with your points, it now appears that this is the way things are dividing up: * Coderpunks -- number theory, DES, Haval, C/C++/Java, IETF and TCP/IP stuff, digital signatures, crypto libraries and APIs, Diffie-Hellman, BSAFE, RSAREF, etc. * Cypherpunks -- nuclear bomb triggers, why women are more free under the will of Allah than in Western decadent societies, movie reviews, SS Obergruppenfuhrer Zimmermann, Zambian newspapers, alien bases in Antarctica, Himalayan treks, etc. Coderpunks is a membership-only list, with a list.cop who approves membership and who expels those who post inappropriate material. Cypherpunks is an open list, with no one ever having been expelled. So, if anyone asks "What does this have to do with cryptography?!?!," point out to him that this is Cypherpunks, not Coderpunks! "Cryptography? You want _crytography_? This is not _Coderpunks_! We don't have to show you no steenking cryptography!" --Tim Boycott espionage-enabled software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^756839 - 1 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
Tim May writes:
So, if anyone asks "What does this have to do with cryptography?!?!," point out to him that this is Cypherpunks, not Coderpunks!
This is a reasonable distinction, and it's certainly the interface between cryptography and social/net/monetary/freedom issues where I find cypherpunks valuable. Your laundry list is amusing, and I think the IPG debunking traffic is useful, but sooner or later there has to be effectively an "end of story". Cheers, Peter Monta pmonta@qualcomm.com Qualcomm, Inc./Globalstar
Coderpunks is a membership-only list, with a list.cop who approves membership and who expels those who post inappropriate material. Cypherpunks is an open list, with no one ever having been expelled.
I'm sort of surprised that no one besides Tim seems to be bothered by coderpunks. The idea of a cliquish technical elite developing crypto code out of the public eye isn't very cyberpunkish. But at the same time, we ought to keep a couple of things in mind. First of all, the problem that coderpunks was organized to solve is a real one -- cypherpunks takes a lot of time, there's a lot of noise, and it's often frustrating. What's more, the coderpunks list is a lot more open than some of the early rhetoric suggested it would be. Making the list archives available at hks.net is a very positive gesture. There was a post here last week claiming that no one had been denied membership to coderpunks -- that's very different from the policy advocated in some early coderpunks posts, which called for allowing new subscriptions by invitation only. Coderpunks seems to be shaping up as a reasonably open list that demands that its members stay on topic. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I hope the new list catches on, and that it makes it easier for its members to develop new tools. But I'd also like to be able to continue to read it -- I hope that the members will see the value of not closing it off any tighter than necessary to keep their s/n ratio high.
participants (3)
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Alex Strasheim -
Peter Monta -
tcmay＠got.net