Re: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
At 11:13 4/25/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:17:09 -0400 To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> Subject: FC: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
It also creates new criminal penalties for using encryption to further a criminal act ... Remember that Maryland bill that would criminalize sending "annoying" or "harassing" email? If the Goodlatte bill became law, Marylanders who signed their messages with PGP or telnetted to local ISPs could be slammed with an all-expenses-paid trip to the Federal pen for five years ... In other words, SAFE would turn state misdemeanors into Federal felonies. This is not good.
Ok. So it's kind of bad in this respect, but let's face it ... we can't have everything OUR way, the FIRST time around. Washington politics is just not that way (not that you need such a reminder).
I think you misunderstand the situation. The government is in somewhat of a disadvantage by virtue of the fact that there is relatively little pro-censorship and anti-encryption legislation. Absent such legislation, the status-quo moves in a relatively free fashion, which is why the Internet is mostly unregulated today.
A coalition of groups is sending a letter to Goodlatte tomorrow supporting the bill but expressing concern over the criminalization provision. Interested in signing on? Email David Sobel: sobel@epic.org.
Let's let the legislative process (whatever you think of it) take its course.
That's precisely what they want us to allow, and that's exactly why we shouldn't accept it. As Tim May has repeatedly pointed out, we are probably better off with NO legislation than bad legislation, and all we've been offerred so far this year is bad legislation. Jim Bell jimbell@pacifier.com
My lord, I'm agreeing with Jim Bell! Right now, no controls exit on domestic crypto, though strict export controls are in place. The question is: Do we want to give up any domestic freedom in exchange for a relaxation of export controls? (Congress is, after all, built on compromises between warring factions.) My instinct is to say "No." Let the courts strike down ITAR, EAR, and its progeny, while we keep our freedoms domestically. -Declan On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Jim Bell wrote:
At 11:13 4/25/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:17:09 -0400 To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> Subject: FC: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
It also creates new criminal penalties for using encryption to further a criminal act ... Remember that Maryland bill that would criminalize sending "annoying" or "harassing" email? If the Goodlatte bill became law, Marylanders who signed their messages with PGP or telnetted to local ISPs could be slammed with an all-expenses-paid trip to the Federal pen for five years ... In other words, SAFE would turn state misdemeanors into Federal felonies. This is not good.
Ok. So it's kind of bad in this respect, but let's face it ... we can't have everything OUR way, the FIRST time around. Washington politics is just not that way (not that you need such a reminder).
I think you misunderstand the situation. The government is in somewhat of a disadvantage by virtue of the fact that there is relatively little pro-censorship and anti-encryption legislation. Absent such legislation, the status-quo moves in a relatively free fashion, which is why the Internet is mostly unregulated today.
A coalition of groups is sending a letter to Goodlatte tomorrow supporting the bill but expressing concern over the criminalization provision. Interested in signing on? Email David Sobel: sobel@epic.org.
Let's let the legislative process (whatever you think of it) take its course.
That's precisely what they want us to allow, and that's exactly why we shouldn't accept it. As Tim May has repeatedly pointed out, we are probably better off with NO legislation than bad legislation, and all we've been offerred so far this year is bad legislation.
Jim Bell jimbell@pacifier.com
Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
My lord, I'm agreeing with Jim Bell!
Declan is showing promise.
Right now, no controls exit on domestic crypto, though strict export controls are in place.
The question is: Do we want to give up any domestic freedom in exchange for a relaxation of export controls? (Congress is, after all, built on compromises between warring factions.)
Most folks who are trying to sell crypto products will say YES. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
My lord, I'm agreeing with Jim Bell!
Right now, no controls exit on domestic crypto, though strict export controls are in place.
The question is: Do we want to give up any domestic freedom in exchange for a relaxation of export controls? (Congress is, after all, built on compromises between warring factions.)
My instinct is to say "No." Let the courts strike down ITAR, EAR, and its progeny, while we keep our freedoms domestically.
-Declan
I emailed Rep Goodlatte, but didn't get a response about this issue. My main problem is that it becomes a felony to use encryption for anything that can be prosecuted if I take the legalese literally. So if I have a GSM cell phone in a car that is illegally parked, it seems that I would fall under the definition. I would mind it less if, 1. There had to be a conviction for the main crime. 2. The main crime must be a serious felony (i.e. something far worse than a single overdrawn check). 3. The penaly for using encryption in furtherance should be less than that for the main crime. 4. encryption had to play an intrinsic role in the main crime. 5. It must go beyond common, everyday uses of encryption. tz@execpc.com finger tz@execpc.com for PGP key
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <97Apr26.185020edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>, on 04/26/97 at 04:50 PM, tz@execpc.com said:
On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
My lord, I'm agreeing with Jim Bell!
Right now, no controls exit on domestic crypto, though strict export controls are in place.
The question is: Do we want to give up any domestic freedom in exchange for a relaxation of export controls? (Congress is, after all, built on compromises between warring factions.)
My instinct is to say "No." Let the courts strike down ITAR, EAR, and its progeny, while we keep our freedoms domestically.
-Declan
I emailed Rep Goodlatte, but didn't get a response about this issue. My main problem is that it becomes a felony to use encryption for anything that can be prosecuted if I take the legalese literally. So if I have a GSM cell phone in a car that is illegally parked, it seems that I would fall under the definition.
I would mind it less if, 1. There had to be a conviction for the main crime. 2. The main crime must be a serious felony (i.e. something far worse than a single overdrawn check). 3. The penaly for using encryption in furtherance should be less than that for the main crime. 4. encryption had to play an intrinsic role in the main crime. 5. It must go beyond common, everyday uses of encryption.
What I find troubling with the whole thing is the ideal that I *NEED* the US Congress to pass a law giving me permision to exercise my 1st Amendment Rights. This is just another "bait and switch" scam by the government. - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info - ----------------------------------------------------------- Tag-O-Matic: Friends don't let friends use Windows. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000 iQCVAwUBM2RzQY9Co1n+aLhhAQFatAP/RLO83JvFuU4gIddlSdvSgGxLd1fM2DlV GMWTJ8tuzCclvGLp+mnkfzviQjhoV17DZKz9JeDMUpnDYC0X5O8ixLEnYLOkwWiB yF0avwsN+s9kQESFHNd8p/fybHvud007Oyg48g/WHQulLcRM01phhw2wcYx8ZuyO VYFE5rPrHPY= =ghIK -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 06:50 PM 4/26/97 -0400, tz@execpc.com wrote:
On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
My lord, I'm agreeing with Jim Bell!
Right now, no controls exit on domestic crypto, though strict export controls are in place.
The question is: Do we want to give up any domestic freedom in exchange for a relaxation of export controls? (Congress is, after all, built on compromises between warring factions.)
My instinct is to say "No." Let the courts strike down ITAR, EAR, and its progeny, while we keep our freedoms domestically.
-Declan
I emailed Rep Goodlatte, but didn't get a response about this issue. My main problem is that it becomes a felony to use encryption for anything that can be prosecuted if I take the legalese literally. So if I have a GSM cell phone in a car that is illegally parked, it seems that I would fall under the definition.
I would mind it less if, 1. There had to be a conviction for the main crime. 2. The main crime must be a serious felony (i.e. something far worse than a single overdrawn check). 3. The penaly for using encryption in furtherance should be less than that for the main crime. 4. encryption had to play an intrinsic role in the main crime. 5. It must go beyond common, everyday uses of encryption.
It is kind of similar to the laws involving guns and crime. If they find a gun anywhere near the crime scene they tack on bigger and better penalties. (For example: they break down the door of someone who has some quantity of illegal molecules on their property and find a gun in the search. Odds are they will try and tack on the "gun used in commission of a crime" penalties.) Anything that can become a threat to those in power will become eligible for such additional penalties at some point. "In the future it will be extra jail time for using fire and/or the wheel in the commission of a crime. and the people to bring it to you? The TLAs!" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQEVAwUBM2OnKOQCP3v30CeZAQGXIAf+JS45w58k062qNfMAOPs8zDrwi2V7LkrD U1ibZoTCA8zr5PMP8/JqOEhY7vxWsduO53OHYJPKj46cqZ5WkLpTJdQUzJ1vRLTZ /hvd84/MgWnThb+zVZoqywH3Ss049vq6RWSJQkNXkGzMrTi3920uOrAXd+55LclN jDjsvEMTnyQN1ziF2v4SMaMNnd0zN0xVG+/xmm4CHcQL2FR0wJhSZGiyYilL21w6 9qIilgQmpx6t7Ma4V94CnFS/mJzPNc/0DHRvnuIBdSD/XPRvJdVdA+gwDXKDoMJk SBhAI3mbrTvPRAP9AE+bco7ecxuDDhJElcTJDU2PjBowu4gfPL3WwA== =72ny -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --- | "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!" | |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/ |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|
participants (6)
-
Alan Olsen -
Declan McCullagh -
dlv＠bwalk.dm.com -
jimbell＠pacifier.com -
tz＠execpc.com -
William H. Geiger III