In message <940815.080301.3B8.rusnews.w165w@sendai.cybrspc.mn.org> "Roy M. Silvernail" writes:

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I am an agnostic. I don't believe that 'they' exist. I believe that you have a system staffed by a random selection of the American population, somewhat skewed because people have some control over what area they work in. To work with a system, you need to understand it objectively, you need something more than incantations.

You've been pressing this point for some time. I think the fundamental flaw in your reasoning is that you are assuming the system to be the sum of its parts. That's not the case, though.

What I said was : "to work with a system, you need to understand it objectively". Then your reply was : "the fundamental flaw in your reasoning is ..." I did not 'reason', I said that it was necessary to reason rather than shout incantations. You then proceed to reason, and I of course have no objection to this:

In _Systemantics_, John Gall conducts a very interesting examination of man-made systems and their behavior. He notes that all man-made systems exhibit certain traits, among them growth, encroachment and promulgation of intra-system goals. Your observation on the people employed by government may be right on target, but it doesn't take into account the entity of government itself. This entity cannot be touched, communicated with or coerced.

I more or less agree. Now apply your arguments to this list as a man-made system.

Put another way, even though every person within the system may be a "good man", the system itself isn't necessarily good.

I agree. But recall that I never spoke of goodness; I just said that the people who work for the government are pretty much a random assortment of Americans. On the other hand, there have been several heated statements to the effect that 'all lawyers are X' and 'all government employees are Y'. It is this that I disagree with the most.

I'm sure part of this is a cultural difference, given your .uk address. The US Gov't probably looks better from outside than it does from within.

I am an American living in the UK. I have had several years of unpleasant experiences with various bureaucracies and other agencies of the US and state governments. I have closehand experience of the operation of the US military, including military intelligence. In other words, I base my opinions on extensive experience and observation, not all of which I care to discuss. I have seen colossal waste and massive irresponsibility from very close up. I need no lectures on these topics, especially from, is there a polite way to say this?, the ignorant. I have also seen the operations of other governments from very close up. I have lived most of my adult life outside the USA. Those other governments are, on average, somewhat worse and sometimes very much worse than the US government. And I have also learned that the US government is staffed by, as I said, pretty much a random assortment of Americans, and if you understand it, you can deal with it. You simply have to look at what really happens, and try to understand it. Reciting incantations has very little effect. -- Jim Dixon