The death of the list as we know it (tm)
I've only been monitoring the list for a couple of days, but already it is clear to me that the traffic is _way_ too high to manage as a mailing list. Apart from the volume, the very structure of Email tends to dis-associate message from reply, and make it difficult to do any filtering before reading (one of the great joys of using _nn_ IMHO). A humble suggestion: someone undertake to create alt.cyperpunks and shadow the newsgroup and the mailing list (so that posts to one also go to the other). In my case this would cut my reading time in half and increase my "harvest" by a factor of two. The mailing list would still be available for those who cannot get the group. In addition, as the number of people getting the mailing list would decrease, it would probably delay the death of the net by bandwidth overload for a few hours (currently, it is scheduled for sometime in June 1997, last time I checked). Also, even an unmoderated alt group can be made moderated (and thus, filter out most of the forgery, etc) by appropriate use of technology described in this mailing list. +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Robert J. Woodhead, Biar Games / AnimEigo, Incs. trebor@forEtune.co.jp | | AnimEigo US Office Email (for general questions): 72447.37@compuserve.com |
Robert J Woodhead says:
I've only been monitoring the list for a couple of days, but already it is clear to me that the traffic is _way_ too high to manage as a mailing list.
All the excess traffic is metatraffic about how bad the traffic is. Quit talking about the excess traffic and the problem will end. Perry Who gets 300-500 email messages a day and still gets his work done, and who doesn't complain lightly about volume.
In message <9310080056.AA27566@dink.foretune.co.jp>, Robert J Woodhead writes:
A humble suggestion: someone undertake to create alt.cyperpunks and shadow th e newsgroup and the mailing list (so that posts to one also go to the other). In my case this would cut my reading time in half and increase my "harvest" by a factor of two. The mailing list would still be available for those who cannot get the group.
I strongly support this idea, so I'll mention a further advantage: kill files! No more wading through boring message about anonymous remailers, digital cash an so on (or RSA weaknesses, or crypto-legality or whatever your personal bug happens to be). Patrick O'Callaghan Internet: poc@usb.ve Departamento de Computacion NICNAME: PO22 Universidad Simon Bolivar Tel: +058 (2) 906 3242, 906 3254 Sartenejas, Baruta, Edo. Miranda FAX: +058 (2) 93 71 28 Caracas, Venezuela "Just messing about in quotes"
Patrick O'Callaghan writes:
I strongly support this idea, so I'll mention a further advantage: kill files! No more wading through boring message about anonymous remailers, digital cash an so on (or RSA weaknesses, or crypto-legality or whatever your personal bug happens to be).
Well, my mailer program (Eudora) has better "kill file" capabilities than my newsreader program (tin), so converting the mailing list into a newsgroup would be a lose for me. Not that what's convenient for me is what we have to use, just that _your_ particular situation is not universal. My point is this: there are many sound reasons to keep a group such as ours a mailing list and not open it to every freshman in college who can grep for "punk" and stumble across us, or for every Sternlight-type bozo who delights in creating noise and rancor in groups. As others have mentioned, tools exist to locally feed mailing list traffic into pseuodo-newsgroups, which can then be treated as the newsgroup format some folks desire. We debate this issue every couple of months. Give it up. Or start your own newsgroup. Or use one of the existing newsgroups. --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it.
Timothy May writes:
My point is this: there are many sound reasons to keep a group such as ours a mailing list and not open it to every freshman in college who can grep for "punk" and stumble across us, or for every Sternlight-type bozo who delights in creating noise and rancor in groups.
This is called "security through obscurity." I'm shocked to see it advocated in this list! ;^> Opening up the list into a newsgroup has risks, but they can be mitigated and doing so would make it easier to use, and reduce the load on toad. One way to mitigate the effect on the list itself is (1) make the connection 1 way (list->group), with postings to the group sent through and anon remailer and (2) postings to the group from the list could be signed to authenticate them. Bottom line, isn't one of the goals of punkery in general (whatever flavor) to _spread_ knowledge. Shouldn't this stuff be shouted from the digital treetops?
Robert Woodhead writes:
This is called "security through obscurity." I'm shocked to see it advocated in this list! ;^>
And I'm shocked--:-}-- that people keep beating a dead horse, expecting that if they repeat their arguments enough times, something will miraculously change. This rarely works, and mainly just dilutes the content of the list further.
Opening up the list into a newsgroup has risks, but they can be mitigated and doing so would make it easier to use, and reduce the load on toad.
I won't repeat my own arguments for the 7th or 8th time. In any case, Eric Hughes has the final say and he has said it will not happen in no uncertain terms. If you vote otherwise, send your votes to dev/null. They'll count more that way. (There is no pretense that the list is a democracy.)
Bottom line, isn't one of the goals of punkery in general (whatever flavor) to _spread_ knowledge. Shouldn't this stuff be shouted from the digital treetops?
Not one of the major goals, from my perspective. We don't advertise, we don't lobby, we aren't even _set up_ to do such a thing. And when we're interviewed (and anybody _can_ be), nobody spouts off the "Cypherpunks agenda." Books and magazines spread knowledge. Notice that we don't even have a FAQ? We're hardly in the education business. We're a loose collection of folks, bound by the mailing list and the various physical meetings (and those of you out in the hinterlands should simply organize your own gatherings). The interest in remailers, digital money, code, etc., is the main glue. Political action is a detour. The Clipper debate was one such detour, occuoying too much time for several months, though I suspect some good came out of it. Anyway, it's not for me to say what the Cypherpunks are, but all those folks shouting that "we" are a lobbying group, or whatever, are misguided, I think. One of the advantages of a mailing list is the implied sense of community and of a shared history. It is expected that most on the list have seen the traffic go by, even if they skipped many of the messages. Newsgroups, on the other hand, encourage people to dip in for a few days, ignore for several weeks, dip in again, and so on. Thus, a huge number of repeat topics as people dip in and out and miss the context of comments, the history, and so on. Progress stalls, even more so than progress may've stalled in some areas on this List. And while I agree that TLAs may be reading this list, one way or another, making it a newsgroup would open it up for archiving around the world, for appearance on those CD-ROMS filled with Usenet traffic, and for easy grepping by future employers and future government snoops. In other words, a public forum. That's great if the goal is to educate people about crypto, not so great if the goal is frank discussion of tough problems. --Tim -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it.
Bottom line, isn't one of the goals of punkery in general (whatever flavor) to _spread_ knowledge. Shouldn't this stuff be shouted from the digital treetops?
No, not necessarily. I think that you're missing the mechanics behind the list. In any case, I think you can pretty much forget about shifting this list anywhere from where it is now -- it (we) are doing _exactly_ what the recipe calls for.... Cheers! _____________________________________________________________________________ Paul Ferguson Mindbank Consulting Group fergp@sytex.com Fairfax, Virginia USA ferguson@icp.net
trebor@foretune.co.jp (Robert J Woodhead) writes:
I've only been monitoring the list for a couple of days, but already it is clear to me that the traffic is _way_ too high to manage as a mailing list.
It has been worse, it will get better. This list goes through phases where the discussion ranges from the good technical to the annoying op-ed that it has been recently. If it is way too high for you might I suggest you try getting better software on your side to manage the traffic.
A humble suggestion: someone undertake to create alt.cyperpunks and shadow the newsgroup and the mailing list (so that posts to one also go to the other).
Has been proposed and shot down quite frequently. The signal to noise ratio of a newsgroup is much higher than a list. A mailing list has a self-regulating feature in that when the traffic becomes high and the signal low everyone gets annoyed and _people learn to shut up!_ A newsgroup does not have this feature and flamefests and other bullshit has a tendency to feed upon itself until it drowns out everything else. Just take a look at sci.crypt at the moment if you want a quick example. There is a group dedicated to political crypto issues. People still insist on posting info to what should be a technical group even though there is already a talk group for this stuff, and no amount of chastising or reminders will dissuade them. If someone were to do this to the cypherpunks group I would not be surprised if someone just started a new mailing list and limited it to invitation only for those who are interested in the real mission of this group (cypherpunks write code, remember? whining about bbs legal bullshit and other topics just doesn't seem to fit the purpose.)
In my case this would cut my reading time in half and increase my "harvest" by a factor of two.
You can set up an easy filter and gateway so that at your site the list does go to a local newsgroup (some people already do this), but please do not presume to make such a decision for the rest of us. If you want to make it easy for yourself please feel free to do so. There is apparently a lot of software out there for handling this kind of traffic volume that you are just not aware of.
The mailing list would still be available for those who cannot get the group.
Only the traffic would triple with even more bullshit as Sternlight and the like takes notice of our little world. More people would drop from the list as you open the floodgates.
Also, even an unmoderated alt group can be made moderated (and thus, filter out most of the forgery, etc) by appropriate use of technology described in this mailing list.
It takes someone about 5 seconds to figure out how to get around all of that. One advantage a mailing list gives us is the ability to maintain at least on central point of administration so that if we did select a scheme such as that on the extropians list we still have that option. Once something becomes a newsgroup we lose _all_ control we might have on the list. Do not split the list, do not dip it in the mediocrity of the usenet, get better software and let the system regulate itself; have some patience. jim
participants (8)
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Eric Blossom -
ferguson＠icm1.icp.net -
Jim McCoy -
Patrick O'Callaghan -
Perry E. Metzger -
Robert J Woodhead -
Robert J. Woodhead
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