clipper==bad, but how do you explain this to average joe 6-pack?
How do we go about explaining why clipper is bad to average joe 6-pack? I've noticed that most normal people seem to think the reasons against clipper are just paranoid concerns of a bunch of conspiracy theorists. Average joe 6-pack doesn't seem concerned that the government will have the keys to decrypt anything he does using a cellular phone with a clipper chip. Or in the key database were compromised, such things could be forged, but that's what average joe 6-pack sees as being the imaginations of a bunch of conspiracy theorists in action. How can this be explained to people who have a hard time differentiating a 5.25" floppy from a small paper plate? (Well, they couldn't do it 2 out of 3 times) If we can't effectively convince the average citizens that clipper is bad, they'll accept it because the government told them it is good and alternative crypto is bad because the only reason to hide something from our benevolent, democratic government(which is always acting in our best interests) is if we're hideous criminals. Any comments would be appreciated. -Mike -- Mike Sherwood internet: mike@EGFABT.ORG uucp: ...!sgiblab!egfabt!mike
Mike Sherwood says:
How do we go about explaining why clipper is bad to average joe 6-pack?
You don't. They don't matter much anyway. Just concentrate on the people who matter. Contrary to popular belief, the people don't run this country. If we can convince Congress that this is a bad idea, the opinions of their constituents won't matter. Convincing the people who think is likely more effective than convincing the folks who hang out at Bowl-O-Rama anyway -- the congressmen don't care about the Bowl-O-Rama folks because they never vote anyway. Perry
How do we go about explaining why clipper is bad to average joe 6-pack?
"When the national health care system decides that your beer is bad for you, they won't make beer illegal, they'll just raise your insurance rates. And because you can't protect your privacy they'll know exactly how much beer you buy." Substitute your favorite commodity above, such as motorcycle helmets, condoms, greasy food, cigarettes, or pronography. Eric
"When the national health care system decides that your beer is bad for you, they won't make beer illegal, they'll just raise your insurance rates. And because you can't protect your privacy they'll know exactly how much beer you buy."
Substitute your favorite commodity above, such as motorcycle helmets, condoms, greasy food, cigarettes, or pronography.
How soon would it be before they will decide that anyone who is afraid of what the NSA and its fans must be paranoid, so paranoid that they must be insane and thus, must be put in a mental institution because they are a danger to themselves and others. Never mind that there aren't any mental institutions left, they can reopen them. Oh, and anyone who disagrees with King Kongress and Billary must also be insane, why would anyone disagree with the direct descendents of the Gods! :-)
How soon would it be before they will decide that anyone who is afraid of what the NSA and its fans must be paranoid, so paranoid that they must be insane and thus, must be put in a mental institution because they are a danger to themselves and others.
Never underestimate the capacity for opressive national governments to put dissidents in mental institutions. Eric
If ol' Joe happens to read "Doonesbury," ask him what Duke would do if he held the Clipper key.
I have to agree with Time, etc that many of my friends say the equivilant of "what a stupid idea... it'll never pass" when I explain what the gov is trying to do to us. Some of my friends, however, think I am totally paranoid (not completely false) and that I should just chill out a bit. The problem is that many people say that clipper is so stupid it'll never pass, so they assume that their congress-critter will do the "right" thing and dump clipper. This is where most people fail. Our congress-critters are most likely *not* going to do the right thing, since their ears are being pulled by the NSA and the FBI, etc... who think that unless all of us are watched, we'll hurt ourselves or hurt eachother like a bunch of infants. -nate -- +--------- | Nate Sammons <nates@netcom.com> PGP Key and fingerprint via finger. | Clipper == Big Brother Inside. Question Authority. Encrypt everything. +---------
Mike Sherwood writes:
How do we go about explaining why clipper is bad to average joe 6-pack?
Well, there are many approaches to take. Most of us (sorry, Lefty, for speaking as a tapeworm :-} ) are totally opposed to Clipper and key escrow in all its forms, as I'm sure most readers of this list know. (A few defenders of Clipper have appeared here recently....draw your own conclusions about the overall sentiment of the list.)
I've noticed that most normal people seem to think the reasons against clipper are just paranoid concerns of a bunch of conspiracy theorists.
I've found just the opposite. Most of my non-crypto friends and family understand the issues once they are explained. We've made these points so many times before on this list, so I'll be brief. Mike and others will have to use their imagination to flesh these points out. (And the several excellent articles on crypto in "Wired," "Whole Earth Review," "Communications of the ACM," "The Village Voice," etc., are a good place to go for more details. Some of these article are available on-line.) Limiting crypto is analogous to: - requiring all letters to be written on postcards instead of sealed in envelopes (Phil Zimmermann came up with this one) - insisting that all locks on doors have their keys "escrowed" with the local cops, just in case the cops want to make a midnight "inspection" of your house. - outlawing window shades and other obstructions to those who are videotaping you through your windows. - requiring that all photo processing labs make a duplicate set of all photos and "escrow" them with the local Legion of Decency or Child Protective Services Agency, just in case child nudity or other evidence of criminality is suspected - "Diary escrow," in case one's diary is suspected of containing subversive writings or admissions of criminal behavior - bugging of church confessionals...for obvious reasons. I mean, if people are "confessing" their sins, shouldn't the police know? Dorothy Denning certainly thinks so. ....Use your imagination to construct similar analogies to educate your friends and opponents. The issues don't require any expertise in number theory or cryptology to comprehend. ....
clipper chip. Or in the key database were compromised, such things could be forged, but that's what average joe 6-pack sees as being the imaginations of a bunch of conspiracy theorists in action. How can this be explained to people who have a hard time differentiating a 5.25" floppy from a small paper plate? (Well, they couldn't do it 2 out of 3 times)
Don't phrase things in terms of computers, modems, floppy disks, etc. Use familiar examples, such as locks on doors and personal diaries.
If we can't effectively convince the average citizens that clipper is bad, they'll accept it because the government told them it is good and alternative crypto is bad because the only reason to hide something from our benevolent, democratic government(which is always acting in our best interests) is if we're hideous criminals.
Personally, I'm not fighting the battle of trying to convince my neighbors and folks I meet at the gym that key escrow is bad. We reach a lot more folks by talking to and educating journalists. I of course spoke to several of them before the Clipper thing broke. (But two of them got in contact with _me_ precisely because I'd written about the evils of key escrow half a year before Clipper was even announced....this meant their articles hit at the same time Clipper was hitting.) I recently spent 2 hours on the phone answering the many questions of a Southern California reporter who is writing a long article on crypto and Clipper that he hopes to resell to many other papers. I dwellt heavily on analogies like the ones I described above....he seemed to think these analogies will be easily understandable to his readers. The more contact I have with journalists (Levy, Kelly, Dibbell, Markoff, others), the more impressed I am. True, these are mostly science or computer-literate folks, but their overall grasp of the issues is impressive. --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."
tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) writes:
Well, there are many approaches to take. Most of us (sorry, Lefty, for speaking as a tapeworm :-} ) are totally opposed to Clipper and key escrow in all its forms, as I'm sure most readers of this list know. (A few defenders of Clipper have appeared here recently....draw your own conclusions about the overall sentiment of the list.)
I also oppose the whole clipper/key escrow idea just because it's the governments' idea. The reason that makes it bad is because they have a lot more power to "promote" their "good ideas" whereas those of us out here have the option to choose if we're happy with des or if we'd prefer pgp. However, this is more of a religious issue than anything else, and the average people don't understand serious religious issues - they're too caught up on the silly ones that no one cares about like creation vs evolution. =)
- insisting that all locks on doors have their keys "escrowed" with the local cops, just in case the cops want to make a midnight "inspection" of your house.
well, the cops can do that anyway with their magic door-breaking key. And as we've seen in the case of steve jackson games, they'd much rather break things apart than let people give them keys to open them. =)
- outlawing window shades and other obstructions to those who are videotaping you through your windows.
this applies to crypto in general. clipper gives this protection from everyone *BUT* law enforcement. how do we justify "hiding" everything from the police without giving the inference that what we want to keep private is illegal or highly questionable? I've found a lot of people more willing to assume the government's intentions are good than to accept that individuals are.
Personally, I'm not fighting the battle of trying to convince my neighbors and folks I meet at the gym that key escrow is bad.
any thoughts on an approach for bringing this to the attention of those people at the gym that don't care about crypto? or perhaps a speech to a captive audience that has to listen because it's a public speaking class that is part of silly required GE? =) -- Mike Sherwood internet: mike@EGFABT.ORG uucp: ...!sgiblab!egfabt!mike
participants (7)
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Arthur Chandler -
hughes＠ah.com -
mike＠EGFABT.ORG -
nates＠netcom.com -
Perry E. Metzger -
rarachel＠prism.poly.edu -
tcmay＠netcom.com