Re: The Offending Stronghold posts...
Robert Hettinga wrote:
* I'll supply copies of messages cited if you like.
Would you please, just so I could trash them myself this time. :-).
OK. Here they are: ========================================================== Return-Path: cypherpunks-errors@toad.com X-Sender: jya@pop.pipeline.com Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 17:23:14 -0500 To: cypherpunks@toad.com From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com> Subject: Re: More on Stronghold Charge - 1 Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com ---------- Return-Path: cypherpunks-errors@toad.com To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Disappearing articles? From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Comments: All power to the ZOG! Date: Fri, 31 Jan 97 10:39:11 EST Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y. Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com We already know that Sandy's bot automatically discards submissions from people he doesn't like, irrespective of contents. In the past the rejected articles were tossed to the "flames" list. Now Sandy has gone one step further. The following article criticized the product Sandy is paid to peddle. It showed up on the 'unedited' list, but Sandy hated its contents so much that it hasn't made it to EITHER censored or the 'flames' list! This is the beginning of the censored article: To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Security alert!!! From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Comments: All power to the ZOG! Message-Id: <aw5c2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:15:21 EST Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y. Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com Precedence: bulk WARNING: There's a rogue trojan horse out there on the internet known as the "stronghold web server". It's actually a hacked-up version of Apache with a backdoor, which allows hackers (or whoever knows the backdoor) to steal credit card numbers and other confidentil information on the Internet. Be careful! Always use encryption. Do not send confidential information 9such as passwords and credit card numbers) to any site running the trojan horse "stronghold". In general, beware of "snake oil" security products and hacked-up versions of free software. Please repost this warning to all relevant computer security forums. (rest snipped to save bandwidth) --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps ========================================================== Return-Path: cypherpunks-errors@toad.com X-Sender: jya@pop.pipeline.com Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 18:10:58 -0500 To: cypherpunks@toad.com From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com> Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of Stronghold, his product? Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com My version of DV's ploy came via the unedited list. There was also a good, brief discussion about Vulis's multi-pronged Denial of Service attack on Cypherpunks, which came unedited, along with other informative comments about how a technologically adept attacker singles out a quarry amongst a lumbering, slumbering, cud- chewing herd. Quite beastly cryptoanarchistic. ========================================================== Return-Path: cypherpunks-errors@toad.com X-Sender: jya@pop.pipeline.com Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 13:17:32 -0500 To: cypherpunks@toad.com From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com> Subject: Who's Censoring Who? Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com Sandy's e-mailed several of us who've sent messages about Vulis's ploy to put Sandy in a conflict-of-interest bind -- a well-known attack on moderators of all kinds, not just on the net. What's worth admiring is how Vulis has adeptly managed to get others -- targets and witting and unwitting cohorts -- to go along with his attack, attack, attack, by opposing or supporting it. A useful lesson. Smart dude, that Vulis, but no more so than others on the Net, say, Tim May, and in the world who've done the same elsewhere, maybe by even smarter dude(s) who provoked, angered, insulted, an unwitting Vulis, or May, to attack on behalf of ... But such deception is to be expected, along with feigned suprise and outrage at the unfairness of opponents fighting as dirty as one's own pure-blackhearts. Sandy's not censoring cypherpunks, nor is Vulis or May or any single person alone. As Pogo said, it's all of us, posters and lurkers and spooks, each trying to get one's way to prevail, under guise of a high principle not easily honored when the squeeze is on alone in a dark cell. Come on out Sandy, it was just a drill. It's probably worth saving accusations of censorship for the real thing, after trial usage here for what is truly nasty high-stakes global info-war gaming. [Note: Thorn, "cuckoo" and TCM responded to this; none were forwarded to the cp-edited list, AFIK.] ==========================================================
At 12:02 PM -0500 2/17/97, John Young wrote:
Return-Path: cypherpunks-errors@toad.com X-Sender: jya@pop.pipeline.com Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 13:17:32 -0500 To: cypherpunks@toad.com From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com> Subject: Who's Censoring Who? Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Sandy's e-mailed several of us who've sent messages about Vulis's ploy to put Sandy in a conflict-of-interest bind -- a well-known attack on moderators of all kinds, not just on the net.
Interestingly, I don't recall getting any e-mail from Sandy telling me he was not passing on my messages to either the Main or the Flames list...my messages were simply dropped on the floor. (Others, including John, have said they sometimes got nice Sandygrams explaining why their items were deemed unsuitable for either of the lists. Sandy may have considered it pointless to send me an explanation....)
It's probably worth saving accusations of censorship for the real thing, after trial usage here for what is truly nasty high-stakes global info-war gaming.
As John likes literary references, recall William Burroughs' warning about "the policeman inside." I can't share John's belief that we should ignore censorship on the CP list (especially messages going to neither of the two specified lists, without notice). Waiting "for the real thing" is not a clear-cut issue, as explicit censorship of political views is not likely to happen in our lifetimes in the U.S. However, "self-censorship," a la the V-chip, the mandatory voluntary labeling of CDs, etc., is becoming the favored route. And the use of the legal system, or threats to use the legal system (a la threats made to Vulis, Against Moderation, etc.) is part of the bullying pulpit (this pun inspired by John's flights of rhetorical fancy).
[Note: Thorn, "cuckoo" and TCM responded to this; none were forwarded to the cp-edited list, AFIK.]
One of the interesting, and utterly predictable, consequences of "silent suppression" of some messages is that those on the unedited list, who see all traffic (for the nonce), get to engage in conversations which are subsequently suppressed so that several of us are having a conversation the main list (and the flames list) are oblivious to! This has had the fascinating effect of having people outside the conversation (as an example, Blanc Weber) gradually figuring out from "approved" messages that something is going on behind the scenes...they they send us messages (as Blanc did) asking what the hell is going on, what we're obliquely referring to. When the excised material is forwarded to them (as I did with Blanc), the reaction is often "Wow! I didn't know." As conversational threads are often so tangled, and become so much more tangled with time, the job of the censor gets more difficult as time passes. Not only must he excise all mention of banned topics, he must also be alert to later discussions making mention of the act of banning, or of the topics. This is territory well-covered by Orwell, of course. The rewriting of history is a full-time job. --Winston Smith Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
Timothy C. May wrote:
Interestingly, I don't recall getting any e-mail from Sandy telling me he was not passing on my messages to either the Main or the Flames list...my messages were simply dropped on the floor. [snip] As conversational threads are often so tangled, and become so much more tangled with time, the job of the censor gets more difficult as time passes. Not only must he excise all mention of banned topics, he must also be alert to later discussions making mention of the act of banning, or of the topics. This is territory well-covered by Orwell, of course. The rewriting of history is a full-time job.
Exactly. I hate to intrude, but some of us kids learned that lesson in something called "Sunday School" way back when. The lesson was "If you tell one lie, you'll have to tell another to cover it up, then another and another until you're buried in the lies and your credibility is shot". A related lesson: "An excuse is the skin of a reason packed with a lie".
participants (3)
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Dale Thorn -
John Young -
Timothy C. May