RE: Jim Bell goes to Jail--We should avoid raidable, physical meeting
<RANT> I couldn't disagree with you more Tim. If the FBI wants to come raid a Cypherpunk meeting and arrest me, they should be ready for a law suit that will make thier heads spin. I mean can you think of anything more protected by the first amendment than a bunch of hobbiest getting together to discuss math, for christs sakes? I know a couple of lawyers who would drool at the chance to defend someone who is lily white and is arrested for meeting and discussing prime numbers. To suggest the cessation of meetings (no matter how worthless Dimitri) really seems to me to be counter to everything this group is about. </RANT> Chris DiBona -----Original Message----- From: Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM [SMTP:dlv@bwalk.dm.com] Sent: Monday, May 19, 1997 4:30 AM To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail--We should avoid raidable, physical meeting Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
(Also, I suggest _physical_ Cypherpunks meetings not be held for the foreseeable future. I know I plan to skip them all. A gathering of "reputed information terrorists, who have openly discussed assassination markets, C4 explosives, and the destabilization of democratic governments" would be too ripe a target for clowns like Reno, Freeh, and Kallstrom.)
The physical meetings I've been to were not worth the trip. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
At 9:14 AM -0800 5/19/97, Chris DiBona wrote:
<RANT>
I couldn't disagree with you more Tim.
If the FBI wants to come raid a Cypherpunk meeting and arrest me, they should be ready for a law suit that will make thier heads spin. I mean can you think of anything more protected by the first amendment than a bunch of hobbiest getting together to discuss math, for christs sakes? I know a couple of lawyers who would drool at the chance to defend someone who is lily white and is arrested for meeting and discussing prime numbers.
To suggest the cessation of meetings (no matter how worthless Dimitri) really seems to me to be counter to everything this group is about.
Fine that you disagree. I think a lot of Feds would view a meeting of 40-50 people discussing assassination politics, violating U.S. export laws, modifications of semi-automatic rifles to make them more effective in counter-gov't-terrorism, etc, to be a "ripe target." Good for publicity on the evening news. (At the 20-30 meetings I have been at over the last almost 5 years, very few of them have revolved around "discussing prime numbers.") Whether it stands up in court depends on the charges. As for you being willing to file a lawsuit that will make their heads spin, good for you. But to win a lawsuit, one has to have a case. And the laws are written broadly these days, and I doubt such a case would be won. (Did anything ever come of the police actions at the "2600" meetings in D.C. a few years back? I don't recall all of the details, but I gather the cops either moved in and made arrests, or maybe just watched and took down license plate numbers.) By all means, have meetings. I just intend to be in places where I can have defensive weapons at the ready (which has been at some Cypherpunks physical meetings, of course). --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 11:07 AM 5/19/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
Whether it stands up in court depends on the charges. As for you being willing to file a lawsuit that will make their heads spin, good for you. But to win a lawsuit, one has to have a case. And the laws are written broadly these days, and I doubt such a case would be won.
It might be hard to win lawsuits *against* the Feds although Steve Jackson Games did and other false arrest suits have succeeded. The reverse of this is that the Feds would have a very hard time winning a criminal case based on mass arrests at a Cypherpunks meeting. They have lost loads of First Amendment busts over the years. They have also lost the last few sedition cases they've brought even though the targets (white supremecists) were less popular than we would prove to be in court. Many of us also have the intellectual and financial resources to mount an effective defense. They would lose.
(Did anything ever come of the police actions at the "2600" meetings in D.C. a few years back? I don't recall all of the details, but I gather the cops either moved in and made arrests, or maybe just watched and took down license plate numbers.)
Everything dismissed. Just harrassment. There were some actual arrests for tresspassing. Cypherpunks meetings, however, are held with the permission of the building owners so such charges would fail in our case. I think the Feds case against JB is probably pretty weak. Though we don't know the extent of his actions in the physical (as opposed to the spiritual) realm. Arrests are frequently used to intimidate but dismissals or failure to prosecute are very common in cases involving political dissent. DCF -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 5.0 beta Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBM4CtQ4VO4r4sgSPhAQHHUQQAl0ksn2MMXYv/2qIPSscGjC9QmD+XrDPS oNUYEERBZfWw1P6tcOaiUsu9p0r9zbGm+zoP8/2XwQBgvEcSQYrGJeAfO7BNEGe1 yH2DPPTiD8P5DtlcW9UI3OY5VMXVu3VR4TnwW4aCttLIPoq/eLqx6GwF/p/fa8Ye A/xhFaCsLU4= =O64h -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
participants (3)
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Chris DiBona -
Duncan Frissell -
Tim May