At 10:21 PM -0700 7/9/97, Steve Schear wrote:

I know this is off-topic for the list...

But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common recreational pharmaceuticals? Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like sour dough starter, and easily cultured. Once distributed to the street it would be impossible to stop or track (since no controlled chemicals would be required for production).

You know, if Jim Bell was still contributing to the list, the chemist in him would surely produce some posts on this. Then, when the narcs and BATFags searched his house and found the inevitable mold on the bread, the curdled milk, etc. (Jim is a bachelor, and a computer person, so the mold, etc. is inevitable) they could add this to the indictment. And "The Oregonian" could breathlessly headline: "Drug-Producing Molds Found in Home of Terror-Chemist." --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

Then, when the narcs and BATFags searched his house and found the inevitable mold on the bread, the curdled milk, etc. (Jim is a bachelor, and a computer person, so the mold, etc. is inevitable) they could add this to the indictment.

Or he could hide it in cheese or other mold-bearing substances. Would make pizza and beer more fun...

And "The Oregonian" could breathlessly headline: "Drug-Producing Molds Found in Home of Terror-Chemist."

When looking for sleezy headlines from the Oregano, look for the evening edition. They are the most sensationalist. (My favorate is still "Guns a part of fungus season.") Here are a few possible headlines... "Death cheese found in home of Munster-terrorist" "Gudda tip brings in Cheesie Terrorist" "Bell Threat to Portland Delis" The permutations are endless... alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."

On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.

It was developed from "ergot", a fungus that grows on rye.

And there's that other type of fungus, the mushroom.

I expect Steve is right that someone will find a way to engineer a drug-producing common mold or yeast. The profit motive, per se, will not be much of an impediment, provided the costs of development are not huge. I can think of many who would participate, were any reasonable directions apparent.

Mushrooms are hard to grow unless you have a controlled environment. (They tend to cross with other species of mushroom from what I have been told. A friend used to grow mushrooms commercially many years back.)

BTW, this was a topic of conversation several years ago in the nanotech discussion group I was in: home chemistry with instructions dowloaded from the Net. Sort of a "Click here to download manufacturing instructions for LSD."

(Downloaded into a tabletop production machine, of course.)

The instructions for LSD production are already on the net, but not in a nanotech format. (HTML v66.6?) Most of the instructions for LSD are bogus. A friend sent me a huge collection of bogus recipes from sci.chemistry from a few years back. (They get losts of newbies who want to learn how to make LSD.) My favorite is the one that uses Foster's Lauger as a base.

We are probably still several decades away from the mechanosynthesis form of nanotech, presumably less far away from biological forms.

I expect that we will see bioengeneered designer drugs within the next 10 years. The methods for manufacture will not be widely distributed for a much longer period...

Such "dangerous knowledge" will join bombmaking instructions in being added to Fineswine's law. Downloading of instructuctions for NC machine tools, too, if the instructions are for zip guns and even real guns.

When she figures out that such information is available, she will add it on. And it will not stop there... The forces of sanitized thinking will not stop until anything that could be a threat to them is illegal and/or abolished. Sometimes I think the Chinese had the right idea by making it impossible for their civil servants to reproduce. alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."

Tim May writes:

Then, when the narcs and BATFags searched his house and found the inevitable mold on the bread, the curdled milk, etc. (Jim is a bachelor, and a computer person, so the mold, etc. is inevitable) they could add this

I thought he lived with his parents? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

Tim May writes:

Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.

Ergot (Clavecps sp.), which grows on wheat, rye and other grasses.

And there's that other type of fungus, the mushroom.

Psilocibe sp. (which grows in the new world) and some members of the genus Amanita, found in europe and the new world. The problem with many of these natural sources of hallucinogens is that they contain other poisons- ergot alkaloid molecules have an LSD molecule attached, but other parts of the alkaloid cause gangrene and convulsions. Hardly party material! Psilocibe mushrooms usually cause vomiting. Most Amanita species have an lethal dosage which is uncomfortably close to the effective dosage, not a good thing in a drug. Amanita muscaria however was used by the vikings to help induce their 'berserker' state for battle. The problem with these is that it's generally hard to seperate the drugs from the poisons, to the point where if you have the knowledge to do so you might as well just set up a factory to make the drugs from cleaner and cheaper non-biological precursors.

I expect Steve is right that someone will find a way to engineer a drug-producing common mold or yeast. The profit motive, per se, will not be much of an impediment, provided the costs of development are not huge. I can think of many who would participate, were any reasonable directions apparent.

I don't see how that's really any different than marijuana- dope is a weed, it's so easy to grow that retarded alcoholics can grow it. And a different cultivar of the same species (hemp) is a plant that's incredibly useful commercially. Yet it's still illegal to posess any member of the species (or related species like C. indica). If some smart biologist 'fixed' ergot to make nice clean LSD, it'd just be made illegal to posess grain that's got a certain species of mold on it. [..]

Such "dangerous knowledge" will join bombmaking instructions in being added to Fineswine's law. Downloading of instructuctions for NC machine tools, too, if the instructions are for zip guns and even real guns.

Everything that's not compulsory is illegal. -- Eric Murray ericm@lne.com Security and cryptography applications consulting. PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03 92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 11:24 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

We are probably still several decades away from the mechanosynthesis form of nanotech, presumably less far away from biological forms.

But we are much closer to desktop fab stations for larger items. You can already buy one to "print" 3-D parts from CAD files. Good for model making but even good enough for other uses where "hard" hardness is not required. Pricey though.

Such "dangerous knowledge" will join bombmaking instructions in being added to Fineswine's law. Downloading of instructuctions for NC machine tools, too, if the instructions are for zip guns and even real guns.

Course they haven't managed to ban "Submachine Guns for the Home Workshop" or compact "hobby" milling stations yet, have they. DCF "Use a lathe go to jail." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBM8VL8oVO4r4sgSPhAQHjhgQApsIpPUK+LzK3UZah6KMjmkBR/VIcEx5l 7WNq9R8EbjCl9QnPNUpF1f/61LusE43IQ8+SKNfG41Y3PbO1WGcdIj0vLAgPaNWh KceGTIfa1zY8n2D1+/AR9D8lHd+3BlvtIXdx1JtOLWZedeBBOxMMo6TyWlRIbdXa v3/oQ/1PzdI= =ahJ5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

...

try to haul off people who have pond scum in their bird feeders and the like. (Anything that will make them look even more absurd...) Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.

Ergot, a mold that grows on certain types of Rye or fescue, I forget which. This is used to make Ergotamine (imine?) which is used in treatment of certain types of migraines.