With the talk about Phil Karn's latest encounter with the ITAR (International Trafficking in Arms Regulations) issue over Schneier's source code diskette, I thought I'd pass on an interesting comment I heard recently. Someone who's had dealings with the NSA and State over these issues saw some memos, but was not allowed to make copies of them, which indicated that State's lawyer's were very concerned that an ITAR case involving software *not* ever reach the courts, because they felt the government's case was very weak and that a probable loss would be a serious setback in other areas. Make of this what you wish, but I should note that Jim Bidzos or someone like him (I just don't remember whom) at the 2nd RSA Conference, January 1993, said something very similar to this. Namely, that the government has generally avoided ITAR cases involving written material and similar material because of the shaky Constitutional basis. (Shipping a few packing crates full of mag tapes of weapons designs, nuclear secrets, etc., would probably be prosecuted, but shipping a couple of diskettes of C code, based on and essentially identical (no matter what the letter to Phil K. says) to the code published in a freely available book, sounds like precisely the kind of ITAR case the governments fears the most.) Note however, that I am not prepared to make myself a test case here! Anybody who does so, should, in my opionion, be "judgement proof" (to use Duncan Frissell's term). (Suing the government is less dangerous, but probably pointless....and maybe not even possible. A "test case" would probably involved someone very publically and very in-your-facedly exporting the diskettes and then awaiting an ITAR prosecution. Which might never come...no precedent would be established, the ITAR laws would not be changed.) Just my opinion here, but I'm not sure this case is central to the real issues. I applaud Phil for trying to get the diskettes ruled exportable, but fighting a long legal battle is not necessarily a high priority, as I see things. (Usual caveats about people doing whatever they want to do, about Cypherpunks not being an organized group and hence can't have official projects, blah blah.) Good luck! --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."