Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:

...

...

[email reply protesting spam]

You are confused. The above question was e-mailed to me by one of Timmy May's friends.

What you were doing was confusing... how about attributing what people have said to you, in the standard way? I was unsure what was going on until you clarified here. Instead of including all the headers in there with just a space between your headers and the quoted headers (which makes it hard to follow, and makes one wonder if someone is trying a crude forgery), use standard quoting conventions:

Joe Blogss <joe@bloggs.com> writes in private email:

...

[quoted message body]...

or similar?

You're right - the forwarding mechanism I've been using so far just yanks in the spam e-mail without any processing. I will henceforth 1) Put the words 'Tim', 'May', and 'spam' in the subject line 2) Put some obvious ASCII prefix in front of the quotes. I apologize for any confusion.

...

If you have any comments about Timmy May's friends not knowing English, trying to insult people, and posting non-crypto-relevant political rants, address them to Timmy May and his friends.

It would seem to me that the first insults were thrown by yourself, and that your strange habit of bouncing all the fallout to the list is perpetuating the problem.

No. Let me remind you the sequence of events, in chronological order: 1. Timmy May (who picked up a few popular PKC buzzwords, doesn't know anything about crypto, and isn't interested in learning) started spamming this mailing list with political rants 2. Most people who used to discuss crypto work on this mailing list have unsubscribed. 3. I pointed out a few examples of Tim making factually bogus claims in his rants. 4. Tim got very angry at me and started flaming me. I ignored him. 5. Tim posted a series of rants about me, attributing to me various nonsense I never said. I pointed out once that I never said it and then ignored him. 6. Recently it came to my attention that Tim's been contacting off-list various people in the computer security field and "complaining" about the politically incorrect things that I supposedly say on the Internet - except that he made up most of the "things" he complained about. 7. At this point I pointed out quite publicly that he's a liar. 8. Since that time, several friends of Tim May (or maybe Tim himself, using multiple accounts) have been sending me harrassing e-mail, often by quoting my own cypherpunks articles and adding an obscenity. 9. Tim himself continues flaming me and telling lies about me (see his recent rant with the subject "death threats"). And you see, Timmy May is an obsessive liar and a vindictive nutcase.

If reporting to the list is accurate, I hear you have a PhD with a subject related to crypto, so presumably you would have ample knowledge to contribute technical crypto related thoughts. I'm sure people would be interested in anything along those lines you cared to contribute, and your reputation would benefit,

I still hope to be able discuss crypto on this mailing list (yes, my Ph.D. thesis was about crypto), but I see two problems: 1. A lot of people have already left this list, unwilling to be subjected to Tim May's rants, lies, and personal attacks. If I post something crypto- relevant to this mailing list, they won't see it. 2. Here's an example of the net-abuse being perpetrated by Tim May and his merry gang of mailbombers. I posted some crypto-relevant wire clippings to this mailing list. Either Tim (using an alternate account) or some pal of his e-mailed it back to me with an obscenity appended. ]From adamsc@io-online.com Thu Sep 19 00:00:57 1996 ]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf) ] via UUCP; Thu, 19 Sep 96 00:49:21 EDT ] for dlv ]Received: from [206.245.244.5] by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP; ] id AA10508 for dlv@bwalk.dm.com; Thu, 19 Sep 96 00:00:57 -0400 ]Received: from GIGANTE ([206.245.244.168]) by irc.io-online.com ] (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 285-17715) with SMTP id AAA215 ] for <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:00:07 -0700 ]Return-Path: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com> ]Received: from toad.com ([140.174.2.1]) by irc.io-online.com ] (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 285-17715) with ESMTP id AAA186 ] for <adamsc@io-online.com>; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 20:56:47 -0700 ]Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA26101 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:31:02 -0700 (PDT) ]Received: from uu.psi.com (uu.psi.com [136.161.128.3]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA26096 for <cypherpunks@toad.com>; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:30:29 -0700 (PDT) ]Received: by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; ] id AA21433 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 96 20:18:46 -0400 ]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf) ] via UUCP; Wed, 18 Sep 96 12:11:04 EDT ] for cypherpunks@toad.com ]To: "dlv@bwalk.dm.com" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> ]Subject: Re: [NEWS] Crypto-relevant wire clippings ]From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) ]Message-Id: <5gLguD3w165w@bwalk.dm.com> ]Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 12:11:03 EDT ]In-Reply-To: <199609181401.AA21244@crl11.crl.com> ]Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y. ]Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com ]Precedence: bulk ] ]>From varange@crl.com Wed Sep 18 10:09:46 1996 ]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf) ] via UUCP; Wed, 18 Sep 96 11:07:02 EDT ] for dlv ]Received: from mail.crl.com by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP; ] id AA17510 for dlv@bwalk.dm.com; Wed, 18 Sep 96 10:09:46 -0400 ]Received: from crl11.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA03347 ] (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>); Wed, 18 Sep 1996 07:10:14 -0700 ]Received: by crl11.crl.com id AA21244 ] (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for dlv@bwalk.dm.com); Wed, 18 Sep 1996 07:01:51 -0700 ]From: Troy Varange <varange@crl.com> ]Message-Id: <199609181401.AA21244@crl11.crl.com> ]Subject: Re: [NEWS] Crypto-relevant wire clippings ]Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 07:01:50 -0700 (PDT) ]In-Reply-To: <3kJFuD96w165w@bwalk.dm.com> from "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" at Sep 17, 96 10:32:37 pm ]X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] ]Mime-Version: 1.0 ]Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII ]Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ]Content-Length: 19290 ] ]> ]> Money Laundering Alert: August 1996 ]> ]> 'Unauthorized' Banks Pose Laundering Threat ]> ]> They are subject to none of the recordkeeping or reporting requirements ]> of the Bank Secrecy Act, receive no examinations from any banking ]> regulator, and may be on your bank's currency transaction reporting ]> exemption list. ]> ]> The Office of the Comptroller of the Currency refers to them as ]> "entities that may be conducting banking operations in the U.S. without ]> a license." Money launderers probably refer to them as dreams come true ]> and, unless legitimate financial institutions are alert, can use them to ]> place illicit proceeds into the financial system. ]> ]> They are "unauthorized" banks, and for the past five years the OCC has ]> been disseminating advisories to legitimate U.S. banks - but not to ]> consumers - in an effort to expose their existence and halt their ]> illegal operations. ]> ]> These so-called "banks" offer a variety of banking services, often at ]> lower fees and better interest rates than legitimate banks offer. What ]> makes them different from a legitimate bank - and attractive to money ]> launderers -- is that they are not licensed by any U.S. banking agency ]> and thus do not have to meet regulatory standards. ]> ]> Because the OCC and other federal bank regulators are not investigative ]> agencies, they can do little more than report these institutions to ]> those who are. If the entities are found to be operating a bank without ]> a license they can be prosecuted under the Glass-Steagell Act (Title 12, ]> USC Sec. 378(a)(2)). ]> ]> Such prosecutions are rare. In one case in 1994, initiated by Federal ]> Reserve Board examiners, the principals of Lombard Bank, Ltd., were ]> charged with operating an unauthorized bank through a payable-through ]> account at American Express Bank International in Miami. Lombard, which ]> had been "licensed" in the South Pacific money laundering haven of ]> Vanuatu, offered its Central American customers virtually full banking ]> services in the U.S. through its PTA (MLA, Sep. 1994). ]> ]> Earlier this year, the OCC released a list of more than 50 "banks" known ]> to be operating without authorization. OCC officials say the number ]> grows steadily. Some of the "banks" say they are licensed by foreign ]> countries or U.S. states to conduct banking business. Others, such as ]> the Swiss Trade & Commerce Trust, Ltd., of Belize, continue to offer ]> services in the U.S. despite edicts from foreign banking authorities to ]> cease doing business. ]> ]> The unauthorized entities have a common trait. They usually have names ]> that are similar to those of well-known legitimate institutions. The OCC ]> list includes the Bank of England, a Washington, D.C., entity not ]> associated with London's famous "old lady on Threadneedle Street" and ]> Citicorp Financial Services, a Beverly Hills firm not associated with ]> the better-known institution of that name. It also includes the First ]> Bank of Internet, which heralds itself as the first bank in cyberspace. ]> ]> Through its periodic "special alerts," the OCC warns banks to "view with ]> extreme caution any proposed transaction involving any of the listed ]> entities." It makes no effort to educate members of the general public ]> who unknowingly place their money and trust in those uninsured ]> institutions. ]> ]> ]> ]> ]> American Banker: Friday, August 30, 1996 ]> ]> Swift Near Alliance in Trade Document Automation ]> ]> By STEVEN MARJANOVIC ]> ]> Swift, the international banking telecommunications network, wants to ]> play a bigger role in trade finance and the exchange of related ]> documentation. ]> ]> Sources said the Brussels-based organization will soon take a position-- ]> perhaps as early as its September board meeting-- on whether to work on ]> trade automation in cooperation with another consortium, called Bolero. ]> ]> Such a move would involve an increase in nonbank participants on a ]> bank-owned network that has approached such liberalization cautiously. ]> ]> Swift, formally the Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial ]> Telecommunication, is used by 5,300 banks for exchanging messages in ]> such areas as funds transfer, foreign exchange, and securities. ]> ]> The network averaged about 2.7 million messages a day in July, ]> representing daily dollar volumes exceeding $2 trillion. ]> ]> Officials said Swift is nearing a decision to work with the Bolero ]> Association, which is forming an electronic registry for the so-called ]> "dematerializing" of trade documents. Swift could provide the "platform" ]> for allowing banks and corporations to exchange such documentation as ]> letters of credit and bills of lading. ]> ]> Bolero was formed in 1994 with funding from the European Commission, but ]> has not formulated concrete operating plans. Its members include ]> Citicorp, Barclays Bank PLC, and other multinational banks and ]> corporations. ]> ]> Peter Scott, trade services market director at Swift, said it has been ]> in discussions with London-based Bolero since December 1995 about ]> joining forces to automate the exchange of trade documents. ]> ]> "Bankers are beginning to sense both the opportunities in those areas ]> and the threats to them from an intermediary stepping in and potentially ]> taking away the business," Mr. Scott said. ]> ]> Trade-document capability "is not a heavily utilized area within Swift ]> at the present time," he said. ]> ]> The potential in automation is obvious to Bolero officials. At the New ]> York Banktrade Conference recently, John McKessy, the association's ]> North American representative, said the annual value of goods moved ]> internationally approaches $4 trillion. ]> ]> He estimated current international trade requires some three billion ]> documents to be issued and managed. ]> ]> The cost of dealing with paper alone eats up about 7% of the total value ]> of those goods, as much as $280 billion, Mr. McKessy said. ]> ]> Bank revenues from issuing letters of credit last year were just over $1 ]> billion, according to a soon-to-be-released survey by the U.S. Council ]> on International Banking. ]> ]> Anthony K. Brown, senior vice president of trade services at MTB Bank, ]> described trade transaction processing as "extremely cumbersome and ]> tedious, prone to mistakes and delays (that) can be a hindrance to the ]> completion of a transaction." ]> ]> MTB is a $400 million-asset merchant bank based in New York. About 80% ]> of its $100 million in loans are trade-related. ]> ]> The paper-shuffling costs are not borne entirely by banks. Import/export ]> companies, insurers, freight forwarders, and various government ]> inspection agencies are also involved. ]> ]> "The question is whether Swift wants to do it," said Dan Taylor, ]> president of the New York-based U.S. Council. ]> ]> "Swift is going to act fairly quickly on this," he added. ]> ]> Mr. Taylor said Swift officials will likely grapple once again with the ]> political and philosophical issues of giving nonbanks more access to ]> Swift, and to payment systems generally. ]> ]> In 1995, the network granted partial access to nonbanks after years of ]> heated debate. ]> ]> "You always have this push and pull, where some banks would like Swift ]> to do certain things" while others want the network to focus on the ]> money transfer business, Mr. Taylor said. ]> ]> "If Bolero succeeds and Swift joins, I think it will move fairly ]> rapidly, but I'm not sure that Bolero is going to be the only thing out ]> there." ]> ]> He said Bolero might evolve using value-added networks - or intranets - ]> like the IBM Global Network and General Electric Information Services ]> Co., or perhaps even the Internet. ]> ]> Indeed, another member of Bolero, CSI Complex Systems Inc., New York, is ]> apparently talking to several providers of private, value-added networks ]> and may soon enter a contract with one. ]> ]> CSI letter-of-credit software leads the pack in banking, with about a ]> 16% market share, Mr. Taylor said. ]> ]> The company recently formed a business unit called Electronic Documents ]> International, which has developed an Internet-based system for ]> initiating letters of credit. CSI spokesman George Capsis said the ]> software, Import.com, creates "about 30 key documents involved in ]> international trade." ]> ]> The Internet, enhanced with security features, may help the trade ]> industry reduce paper-related costs, especially at smaller companies ]> overseas. ]> ]> CSI managing director Andre Cardinale said customers need only to "dial ]> into a bank's Internet server, pull up the Import.com application, and ]> actually fill in the details to create a new letter of credit or an ]> amendment to an existing one." ]> ]> While Bolero may find a place on the Internet or a GE-type network, Mr. ]> Cardinale said the ultimate push may yet come from the banking industry ]> working collectively through Swift. ]> ]> He said Swift opposition from nonbank constituencies that are concerned ]> the telecommunications cooperative will be more sympathetic to banks ]> when disputes arise. ]> ]> But "if Swift does it," he added, "it will bring banks into the universe ]> far more - pardon the pun - swiftly." ]> ]> ]> Crain's New York Business: August 26, 1996 ]> ]> Bloomberg to Detail Growth of Information Empire ]> ]> Michael Bloomberg made a name for himself on Wall Street with his ]> trading acumen and mastery of the computer systems that were becoming ]> crucial to success in the securities business. ]> ]> But no one suspected when he left Salomon Brothers in 1981 that in the ]> next decade he would build the fastest-growing provider of financial ]> information in the world. ]> ]> Mr. Bloomberg, whose company Bloomberg Financial Markets has estimated ]> sales of $600 million, will be the keynote speaker at the fifth annual ]> Crain's ''Growing a Business Expo,'' to be held this year on Thursday, ]> Oct. 24. ]> ]> The event will take place at the New York Hilton & Towers from 8 a.m. to ]> 1 p.m. It is presented by Citibank and co-sponsored by Con Edison and ]> Empire Blue Cross and Blue Shield. ]> ]> Last year, more than 1,000 growing business owners and managers attended ]> the expo, which provides information for companies operating in the city ]> regarding potential suppliers, financial resources and government ]> programs. ]> ]> The cost to attend the event is $45 and includes a continental ]> breakfast. Individuals registering before Sept. 6 can bring a colleague ]> for free. To register, call Flagg Management at (212) 286-0333. ]> ]> In addition to Mr. Bloomberg's speech, attendees will be able to attend ]> seminars on financing and other help available from the city, financing ]> techniques, energy cost savings programs and how to reduce health ]> insurance costs. An expected 135 exhibitors will be offering products ]> and services of use to growing companies. ]> ]> Crain's New York Business editors will discuss how a growing business ]> can get coverage in Crain's and in other publications. ]> ]> The heart of Mr. Bloomberg's empire is a news gathering operation that ]> sends information through 62,000 computer terminals installed on the ]> desks of investment professionals around the nation. His company ]> provides the latest financial news and sophisticated tools to analyze ]> information. ]> ]> The company he has built is noted for its lack of bureaucracy despite ]> its growth to 2,000 employees. Its hallmarks are hands-on leadership and ]> an entrepreneurial atmosphere where employees receive perks such as free ]> food. ]> ]> Mr. Bloomberg has extended his reach to include an all-news radio ]> station in New York, WBBR; Bloomberg Personal TV; syndicated television ]> shows; a monthly personal finance magazine; and a similar magazine for ]> institutional investors. ]> ]> ]> American Banker: Friday, September 6, 1996 ]> ]> America Online Opens a New Banking Channel ]> ]> By DREW CLARK ]> ]> Nineteen banks - national home banking stalwarts such as Citicorp and ]> BankAmerica, plus a complement of less prominent regionals - have ]> climbed onto the America Online bandwagon. ]> ]> Most already offer their customers several options for banking via ]> personal computer and view America Online, with its six million ]> subscribers, as a way to appeal to a broad cross-section of computer- ]> literate consumers. ]> ]> Fourteen of the AOL banking partners will be delivering services through ]> BankNow, a software package developed for the interactive network by ]> Intuit Inc. ]> ]> The other five banks have opted to use their own software. One of them - ]> Security First Network Bank, which operates entirely on the Internet - ]> will invite AOL users in through their Web browsers. ]> ]> With its announcement this week, America Online Inc. takes its place ]> among the many alternative "channels" for on-line banking. ]> ]> Many of the banks on AOL's list are simultaneously cooperating with ]> other companies that are themselves competitors, such as Intuit and ]> Microsoft Corp., suppliers of the Quicken and Money financial management ]> software, respectively. ]> ]> Also crossing competitive lines, America Online said its subscribers ]> will be able to bank from home with PC software from three suppliers ]> other than Intuit: Checkfree Corp., Online Resources and Communications ]> Corp., and Visa Interactive. ]> ]> "Everyone understands that there is competition in the home banking ]> arena," said David Baird, general manager of the personal finance ]> division at America Online, based in Dulles, Va. "To align ourselves ]> with exclusively one company would be a mistake." ]> ]> Intuit can count on 14 initial bank users of BankNow. Spokesmen for the ]> other three system vendors declined to say when they expect to have home ]> banking products available for the AOL channel. ]> ]> Experts noted that AOL and Intuit could be a strong tandem, in that they ]> dominate their respective businesses. ]> ]> Intuit's Quicken is the leading brand in personal finance software. The ]> company claims more than 9 million active users and a market share of ]> about 80%. ]> ]> America Online's subscriber base of six million is as big as those of ]> its next two competitors, Compuserve and Prodigy, combined. ]> ]> The financial institutions currently offering BankNow are: American ]> Express, Bank of Stockton (Calif.), Centura Banks Inc., Commerce Bank of ]> Kansas City, Mo., Commercial Federal of Omaha, Compass Bank of Alabama, ]> CoreStates Financial Corp., Crestar Financial Corp., First Chicago NBD ]> Corp., Laredo (Tex.) National Bank, M&T Bank of Western New York, ]> Marquette Bank of Minneapolis, Sanwa Bank California, and Union Bank of ]> California. ]> ]> More plan to offer BankNow-based services through AOL later this year: ]> BankAtlantic of Florida, Bank of Boston, First Hawaiian Bank, First ]> Michigan Bank, Mellon Bank, Signet Bank, and U.S. Bank of Oregon. ]> ]> Unlike Quicken, BankNow software is available free to America Online ]> subscribers. ]> ]> Banks' fees will vary. First National Bank of Chicago said it will ]> charge $3.95 a month for on-line banking and $9.95 a month for other ]> services that include bill payment. ]> ]> Centura Banks Inc. said it will offer on-line banking free, and charge ]> $5.95 a month for bill payment. ]> ]> Intuit officials declined to disclose what its Intuit Services Corp. ]> processing unit will charge to handle these transactions for banks. ]> ]> Some of Intuit's larger bank partners chose not to offer BankNow because ]> they already promote their own PC banking programs. ]> ]> For example, Citicorp, First Union, and Wells Fargo each support ]> Quicken, but passed on BankNow. Instead, they are paying a premium for a ]> "button" on America Online's banking screen that will eventually link ]> users to a proprietary home banking program. ]> ]> ]> ]> AP Online: Thursday, September 5, 1996 ]> ]> House Probes Money Laundering ]> ]> By ROB WELLS ]> ]> House Banking Committee members on Thursday urged a Treasury Department ]> agency to step up its efforts to halt money laundering by Mexican drug ]> lords. ]> ]> Rep. Spencer Bachus, R-Ala., urged the Financial Crimes Enforcement ]> Network to put in place new regulations to plug a significant loophole ]> that allows Mexico's drug dealers to place their ill-gotten profits back ]> into the U.S. ]> ]> Bachus, chairman of the House Banking oversight subcommittee, said ]> Congress gave authority to FinCen in 1994 to put in place new rules that ]> would prevent drug dealers from using foreign bank drafts, a type of ]> check, to evade currency reporting restrictions. ]> ]> ''That effort is long, long overdue,'' Bachus said. ]> ]> Rep. Henry Gonzalez, D-Texas, asked the agency to provide further ]> details about suspected money laundering in his home town of San ]> Antonio, particularly the source of a $3 billion cash surplus in the San ]> Antonio Federal Reserve Bank. ]> ]> The issue arose as Bachus' panel began exploring the dramatic rise of ]> narcotics traffic along the 2,000 mile long U.S.-Mexico border, and the ]> ease with which drug dealers can ship their profits to the south. Money ]> laundering refers to the practice by which drug dealers, mobsters and ]> others funnel their illegal profits into the banking system through ]> businesses or other means. ]> ]> Bachus said estimates of drug profits laundered through Mexico range ]> from $6 billion to $30 billion per year. Stanely E. Morris, FinCen's ]> director, defended his agency's record, saying a combination of new ]> rules and tougher enforcement in the past decade has ''made it more ]> difficult to launder money in the U.S.'' and increased the costs of ]> money laundering. Morris' agency enforces the Bank Secrecy Act, a key ]> weapon against money laundering. ]> ]> As for the new rules aimed at foreign bank drafts, Morris said the ]> regulations are more difficult than first expected because such ]> restrictions also could hinder legitimate commerce. He said the proposal ]> would be released soon. ]> ]> FinCen is working on other fronts to combat money laundering, which ]> includes a new computer system that tallies bank fraud to help ]> regulators gain an early warning of money laundering. ]> ]> In addition, the Clinton Administration assisted Mexico in adopting new ]> anti-money laundering rules earlier this year. And Treasury Secretary ]> Robert Rubin convened a conference of 29 nations in December 1995 to ]> focus on the money laundering problem. ]> ]> One committee member, Rep. Maxine Waters, D-Calif., addressed the ]> political context of the hearings. ]> ]> Waters said she was suspicious that the Republican-led Congress was ]> holding ''a rash of hearings this month ... on the subject of drugs just ]> as Presidential candidate Dole tries to use the issue as part of his ]> campaign strategy against President Clinton.'' ]> ]> Waters said if the GOP-led House ''is truly serious about the impact of ]> drugs'' it should hold hearings about charges raised in a San Jose ]> Mercury News investigative series last month concerning the role ]> CIA-backed rebels in Nicaragua played in bringing crack cocaine and ]> weapons to Los Angeles and other cities. ]> ]> Bachus told Waters the hearing wasn't motivated by politics and that he ]> had personally been involved in anti-drug efforts prior to his election ]> to Congress. ]> ]> --- ]> ]> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM ]Fuckhead. Is this any more readable? See, I put a ']' in front of the quoted material. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

...

...

It would seem to me that the first insults were thrown by yourself, and that your strange habit of bouncing all the fallout to the list is perpetuating the problem.

No. Let me remind you the sequence of events, in chronological order:

1. Timmy May (who picked up a few popular PKC buzzwords, doesn't know anything about crypto, and isn't interested in learning) started spamming this mailing list with political rants

I don't think this at all fair; if you've read his cyphernomicon, you will see that he has a perfectly good understanding of crypto. His

On the contrary. Timmy has only a passable understanding of some aspects of public-key crypto. He knows nothing about symmetric crypto and conventional attacks. He even argued that practitioners don't need to learn any crypto outside of PKC. (One of the things I don't like about Americans in their propensity to take pride in their ignorance and lack of education. :-)

strong point as I see it however, is that he was one of the first to think deeply about the implications of strong crypto, and document this in a fairly comprehensive manner. This is a central topic for cypherpunks, after all: cypherpunks are trying to achieve poltical ends via strong crypto, crypto isn't being discussed in isolation, as a purely scientific endeavour. sci.crypt with its charter is more this.

Also, I would point out that you yourself don't restrict yourself to purely crypto discussions (aside from this latest war), you for instance recently discussed driving licenses in NY. Not that I am

Right - the discussion of drivers licences and other credentials is definitely crypto-relevant. The discussion, e.g., of the ethics of mandatory insurance is not. My notion of crypto-relevance is fairly broad. E.g. I find the assassination politics discussion to be crypto-relevant and sometimes very interesting, and I kicked the ass of Alan Olsen and a few other assholes who tried to suppress it. I am very much interesting not only in the technical discussion of crypto, but also in the implication of its use, which would be off-topic for sci.crypt (fwiw). There's a difference between discussing privacy and ranting about unfair taxation of rich old farts like Timmy May.

complaining, or think this is especially inappropriate, as the topic of Chaumian credentials, and the current state of state mandated credentials I consider on topic, but you are criticizing others for analysing politics. The [NEWS] series, also (I've already said I consider these useful), are hardly pure discussion of crypto, if this were your only concern.

Really? I was trying to pull out only the stories which obvious crypto relevance. I'd be curious to know some examples of what in these series you consider not to be crypto-relevant. Perhaps I made a mistake somewhere. In particular, I consider _any discussion of electronic cash or money laundering to be crypto-relevant.

...

2. Most people who used to discuss crypto work on this mailing list have unsubscribed.

True, and unfortunate. coderpunks feels somewhat reminiscent of how cypherpunks used to be in this regard, try subscribing to that, if you are uninterested in political aspects, and have not already. I subscribe to both, because I think politics is also important, as well as churning out code, and just read very selectively on cypherpunks.

I have been subscribed to coderpunks almost since its beginning. It has some interesting discussion. Unfortunately most of the folks who left the original cypherpunks have not re-subscribed to coderpunks.

...

6. Recently it came to my attention that Tim's been contacting off-list various people in the computer security field and "complaining" about the politically incorrect things that I supposedly say on the Internet - except that he made up most of the "things" he complained about.

I don't think it's near as serious as you are worrying about, all I heard him say was something about not understanding the motive for the (spit) stuff. Hardly complaining, more a passing comment on your posting style than a complaint of "political incorrectness".

I'm not "worried", since Timmy May has already earned the reputation of a nutcase and a liar in these circles, and is hardly in a position to "assassinate" anyone's character. However I am somewhat angry that several people I respect approached me in a short period of time and said something to the effect, "You know, Timmy May's been complaining to me about what you write on the Internet." Subsequent investigation revealed that he's been complaining not even about the things I did say (plenty of which are "politically incorrect"), but about things Timmy May himself made up - see quotes below.

...

8. Since that time, several friends of Tim May (or maybe Tim himself, using multiple accounts) have been sending me harrassing e-mail, often by quoting my own cypherpunks articles and adding an obscenity.

It appears that Chris Adams <adamsc@io-online.com> started this. And others confused by the quoting, presumed it was you. (Especially since the headers were yours, as you were forwarding them.) Also the fact that you were forwarding these emails probably would get you complaints anyway, even if the quoting had made it clear what was going on.

How do you know that "Chris Adams" is a real person separate from Timmy? I rather doubt that someone other than Timmy himself would go into trouble "defending" Timmy, let alone three separate people.

...

9. Tim himself continues flaming me and telling lies about me (see his recent rant with the subject "death threats").

I guess you mean the purely fictitious Valdimir G Nulis :-) A cross between Vladimir Z Nuri (who many consider to be Detweiller) and yourself.

I've corresponded with L.D. and he's a very bright and knowledgeable person. Timmy May lies when he claims that VZNuri (who's an idiot) could possibly be his "tentacle". You really should get to know L.D. better before you repeat the lies Timmy May spreads about him.

I don't really see what you're complaining about: it's really oblique, and tame compared to your recent perfectly direct, and somewhat crude insults to Tim.

...

And you see, Timmy May is an obsessive liar and a vindictive nutcase.

I don't see the liar, nor the nutcase. I haven't noticed him say anything which I considered untrue, nor have any of his posts appeared nutty.

I suspect that you haven't been following this discussion for long. Here's a recent quote from myself: ]Despite the name, there's practically no crypto discussions on the list. A few ]weeks ago someone mentioned elliptic curves, and there was an outcry of how ]it's "off-topic". Instead the mailing list is flooded with rants and personal ]attacks from Tim May, who knows next to nothing about cryptography, and whose ]long-winded diatribes in support of child pornography, drugs, and Harry Browne ]have absolutely no crypto relevance. Tim's off-topic spews have driven Eric ]Hughes, John Gilmore, Rich Salz, and many other former valuable contributors ]off the mailing list. Today's Cypherpunks don't write code - they write lies ]and personal attacks. I'll quote a couple of Tim May's unprovoked personal ]attacks against me to illustrate the kind of traffic found on the Cypherpunks ]mailing list (as opposed to cryptography discussions): ] ]>Message-Id: <ae13272612021004e248@[205.199.118.202]> ]>To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov) ]>From: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May) ]>Subject: Lying Purebred Sovok Tchurkas Write the History of the Net ]>Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com ]> ]>At 4:17 AM 7/18/96, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: ]> ]>>Knowing KGB habits as pertaining to releasing information to the public, ]>>I would expect 50% of the CDROM to be pure bullshit, 40% -- lies, and ]>>maybe 10% truth that was already publicly available. ]>> ]>>It is like buying a CDROM about the history of the Net from Dr. Grubor. ]>>Maybe it would be interesting and amusing, but not worth $120. ]> ]>NOW you tell me! I just shelled out $42 for "The History of the Net," by ]>Dr. John Grubor and Dr. Dmitri Vulis, 1996. ]> ]>And here I thought it was the real history of the Net, especially the part ]>about how "the dandruff-covered Peter Vorobieff (spit) conspired with the ]>purebred Sovok Valery Fabrikant (spit) to spread the lies of the Jew ]>cripples dying of AIDS in Sovok-controlled clinics." ]> ]>When Grubor and Vulis speak of the Usenet Cabal being a Sovok (spit) plot, ]>I thought this was the actual truth. I guess not. Maybe Spafford is ]>actually Rabbi Ruthenberg. ]> ]>--Tim May ]> ]>(hint: this a satire, based on the writings of Vulis, who speaks of people ]>as "lying purebred Sovok Tchurkas" (whatever _they_ are), and attaches the ]>charming word "(spit)" after nearly every person he references.) ] ]I responded to Tom May stating that I've never called anybody a (t)churka (I'm ]not even quite sure who or what they are) and asked him to retract his false ]claims. Tim May never retracted, but continued to post more lies about me and ]to attribute to me various nonsense I never wrote. But Tim May's attempts at ]"character assassination" don't stop at the cypherpunks mailing list: recently ]three separate people whom I respect (unlike Tim May) and who work in the ]computer security field told me that Tim May has been complaining to them ]"off-list" about my submissions to the Cypherpunks mailing list. ] ]Here's another recent example of a personal attack Tim May posted to the list: ] ]>Message-Id: <ae5e09fb04021004c8e5@[207.167.93.63]> ]>Mime-Version: 1.0 ]>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ]>To: cypherpunks@toad.com ]>From: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May) ]>Subject: Reputation Systems in Action ]>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com ]>Precedence: bulk ]> ]>At 6:41 PM 9/11/96, paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote: ]>>> tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May) writes: ]>>> > As to "tasteless and insulting," a matter of personal perspective. I find ]>>> > it helpful to call a spade a spade, and others apparently do as well. ]>>> > ]>>> ]>>> Of course, Tim gets very uncomfortable when others call a spade a spade. ]>> ]>> ]>>This constant character assasination of Tim is getting rather boring, ]>>as far as I can see, and I read all of the posts on the list, he has ]>>done nothing more than ignore posts from these idiots, that is his ]>>choice and nothing to do with anyone else. ]> ]>But this latest episode illustrates the role of reputations. Namely, my own ]>reputation is not being harmed by bizarre commentaries from the Vulis-bot. ]>As its reputation is (apparently) pretty low, and associated with Serdar ]>Ardic-style rants about "sovoks," "the cabal," and "spit," such an entity ]>can hardly "assassinate" my character. ] ]Again, Tim May is lying. I am not interested in "assassinating" his character. ]He is the one spreading lies about me and attributing to me various nonsense I ]never said. Tim May shows his true colors when he faults me for my defense of ]Serdar Argic's freedom of speech. Unfortunately, Serdar has been silent for ]over two years, but that doesn't stop censorous liars like Tim May from ]continuing their vendetta against those who defended free speech. ] ]>A few years ago Larry Detweiler, aka "vznuri" ("visionary"), aka "S.Boxx," ]>aka "Pablo Escobar," aka several other alternate personalities, wrote ]>dozens of screeds denouncing me, Eric Hughes, Nick Szabo, Hal Finney, etc. ]>Did this have an effect on our reputations? Not to people I respected, of ]>course. And if Detweiler's rants affected my reputation with his peers, ]>including Dimitri Vulis, Ludwig Plutonium, Doctress Neutopia, Serdar Argic, ]>well, this is to the good. ] ]We keep catching Tim May in major lies: ] ]1. Tim May attributes to me things I never said. ] ]2. Tim May was caught lying about Kelly Goen. ] ]3. Tim May is lying about Detweiler. As far as I know, Detweiler never had any ]problems with Eric Hughes et al, and Hughes doesn't have a problem with ]Detweiler. The only person Detweiler has a problem with is Tim May. Detweiler ]is 100% correct in saying that Tim May is an ignorant liar and a crook. ] ]4. Sovok VZNuri is not Detweiler - even Tim May doesn't believe his own lies. ] ]5. Archimedes (former Ludwig) Plutonium and Doctress Libby Neutopia know a lot ]more about cryptography and are far more truthful than Timothy C. May. ] ]>In the mathematics of reputations, a negative reputation held by one whose ]>own reputation is negative is a positive. ] ]_If it's true, then my reputation benefits from being slandered by the proven ]liar Tim May. Does this answer your questions about Timmy May's veracity?

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...

If reporting to the list is accurate, I hear you have a PhD with a subject related to crypto, so presumably you would have ample knowledge to contribute technical crypto related thoughts. I'm sure people would be interested in anything along those lines you cared to contribute, and your reputation would benefit,

I still hope to be able discuss crypto on this mailing list (yes, my Ph.D. thesis was about crypto), but I see two problems:

1. A lot of people have already left this list, unwilling to be subjected to Tim May's rants, lies, and personal attacks. If I post something crypto- relevant to this mailing list, they won't see it.

The decision to keep the list open was made for reasons I agree with, censoring people is not the way to promote open discussions. Censoring people is something cypherpunks are strongly against in other forums, so it would seem especially hypocritical for cypherpunks to censor the list itself.

No more hypocritical than to have a "cypherpunks meetings" with specific persons excluded because someone doesn't like their political views. Here's a threat I found in our 'orphan' mailbox: ]From paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 19 23:39:14 1996 ]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf) ] via UUCP; Fri, 20 Sep 96 01:23:58 EDT ] for paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk ]Received: from disperse.demon.co.uk by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP; ] id AA02597 for dvl@bwalk.dm.com; Thu, 19 Sep 96 23:39:14 -0400 ]Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([(null)]) by relay-2.mail.demon.net id ah16490; ] 19 Sep 96 17:22 BST ]Received: from fatmans.demon.co.uk ([158.152.120.223]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net ] id aa18174; 19 Sep 96 17:06 BST ]Received: from fatmans.demon.co.uk by fatmans.demon.co.uk with SMTP ] id AA843059897 ; Wed, 18 Sep 96 15:18:17 +0000 ]Comments: Authenticated sender is <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> ]From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk ]To: dvl@bwalk.dm.com ]Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:18:16 +0000 ]Mime-Version: 1.0 ]Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII ]Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ]Subject: Re: A daily warning regarding Timothy C. May ]Priority: normal ]X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31) ]Message-Id: <843149202.18174.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk> ] ] ]> Timothy C. May is a lying sack of shit. ] ]Look, that is enough, I`m going to move to have you removed from the ]list if you keep this up... get a life fuckhead, if you are going to ]flame at least do it from your real address so people can killfile ]you, or maybe you believe censorship is better? ] ] ] ] Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security ] Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk ] Http://www.fatmans.demon.co.uk/crypt/ ] "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey" ] ]-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- ]Version: 2.6.3ia ] ]mQCNAjH9j+cAAAEEAMBvREiQR0ot9dFCO0TiSCSunAYLv2g1Bc6I3bz8FzKXNH53 ]6mieJf/W4rD+CxJpT0q9RQaaoRtkHJLwbjfK2il3D7mEahMAyqvF/xRJNqkXfhM3 ]sRJM0Jh43l+W0M5vwokbEbk25/bxWWGspTsLD3YHbzKnG6pOcL5OPIRbv66xAAUR ]tCdQYXVsIEJyYWRsZXkgPHBhdWxAZmF0bWFucy5kZW1vbi5jby51az6JAJUDBRAy ]NwfvNkCBjDT0xHEBATQPA/9TORmN/UjNecj03q4anpvdyCLiez5sKuNbnYK50RiP ]Jj4QpWWvST3smyQ0A86DrZY/re056MXwQmARESx0rFZxdnD0oORICl5r8dJLIy3b ]j8rbA5olXwZwKz73/X5s13v/pvHYX4cIsbVK8NHXqh5llSKt6TBAuGgkIGF29z5k ]C4kAlQMFEDI3B9mdtf/umVkv7QEBcRYD/1FBteLqsUmr81euxqqnnrpLlyHb58B/ ]9sdATuua4uSjX46hXDZ264YozspNrzSB4NEdrmXOWVX3fiE0ga6XkSSkIeF23V90 ]En37Z0BdbFzgF00FRYTFyTq8eezQrdg/+rBPUsZUmG5wpq3e12FKHQsX01i+1mB2 ]YmqqwCV5e95eiQCVAgUQMh8uSb5OPIRbv66xAQEqJwP/fxQyiCasjFcbDpsFfsYp ]put5cCC/9pOx6X3DlbKShPMpUOS+A9HsTEmJQN8Iawv1nSwPdtc2cR/GhW6ilVjW ]LSloGdMVLabm9pGpZZMkRaZlXFUkOv7VhfgsUiL+vIDryBCAwUZCzQiWycjt/cPi ]mUqFH41Z7NkyO8ZFdi5GGX0= ]=CMZA ]-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- (The idiot misspelled 'dvl' for 'dlv'.) Who could possibly be in the position to threaten to "remove" people from this mailing list? (Hint: he rants a lot.)

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2. Here's an example of the net-abuse being perpetrated by Tim May and his merry gang of mailbombers. I posted some crypto-relevant wire clippings to this mailing list. Either Tim (using an alternate account) or some pal of his e-mailed it back to me with an obscenity appended.

]From adamsc@io-online.com Thu Sep 19 00:00:57 1996 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ why is this in part of your own headers?

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]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf) ] via UUCP; Thu, 19 Sep 96 00:49:21 EDT ]From: Troy Varange <varange@crl.com>

and this too? Is this as a result of threading, or are you quoting part of another message? Or is it a forgery?

I've _apparently received similar e-mail spam from the following addresses: varange@crl.com paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk adamsc@io-online.com The most recent incident involved about 20 identical mailbombs from the latter one. Obviously no one can tell whether they're forged or whether the e-mail really came from these addresses. I suspect that there's just one person behind these very similar attacks, and that this person also posts stupid rants from got.net. You probably weren't around when Timmy May waged a flame war against L.D. which involved Timmy setting up a legion of "artificial persons" designed to show massive support for Timmy's side. This is nothing new.

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]Subject: Re: [NEWS] Crypto-relevant wire clippings ]> [...] ]> CIA-backed rebels in Nicaragua played in bringing crack cocaine and ]> weapons to Los Angeles and other cities. ]> ]> Bachus told Waters the hearing wasn't motivated by politics and that he ]> ]> --- ]> ]> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM ]Fuckhead.

If it is more widespread than those two, perhaps you are being Detweilled? He seems to enjoy that sort of thing.

Timmy May seems to enjoy thi sort of thing since he has no life and too much free time on his hands. L.D. is a perfectly reasonable guy and he'd never do such a thing to me. However I doubt that there are so many distinct people involved in mailbombing me.

People do pay attention when positive contributions are made, for instance I think I remember that you posted some time ago a way to have two plausible decryptions for one cyphertext, to enable things like duress keys, in terms of RSA. The problem with this, however is that RSA is currently very slow to use in its pure form for messages.

I don't recall this one... My feeling about RSA is that one of these days there will be a breakthrough allowing much faster factorization (either through a better algorithm on a conventional computer, or by a practical quantum computer) and then all the codes based on factorization will become essentially plaintext. It's time to start looking for other hard problem to base PKC on. E.g., does anyone know of any progress made on public-key cryptosystems based on the word problem in semigroups, described in Neal Wagner and Marianne Magyarik, _A public key cryptosystem based on the word problem_, Advances in Cryptology: Proceedings of Crypto '84, G. R. Blakley and D. Chaum, eds., Lecture Notes in Computer Sciences #196, Springer Verlag, 1985, and also mentioned in Wayne Patterson, _Mathematical Cryptology for Computer Scientists and Mathematicians_, Rowman and Littlefield, 1987?

From what I neard, NSA tried very hard to implement it and failed, and the Soviets actually built a cryptosystem similar to what they described. I tried to duplicate what the Soviets supposedly did, but without success.

--- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps