DIa!?ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyRyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyNDyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyytNSe useful to set out, as I see it anyway, the main questions that need answering. Thanks for any info/insight that you can provide. 1. How is it possible -- in a legal sense -- for the laws of one state (Germany) to be imposed globally. I suspect the answer to this is : it isn't -- CompuServe seems to have pulled the plug without recourse to any legal battle (?). This makes it's protestations that it's all Germany's fault a little thin. 2. Even granted that Germany can impose it's porn laws on the world, how is CompuServe violating German law: it is *not* the case that CompuServe is producing the offending material *within* Germany. Rather , German netties are able to import the offending material from outwith. Hence it is the German netties (or at most the German connection banks) who are violating the pornography laws. Analogy: if a German stationary retailer buys a stack of smutty mags in Sweden, which wall foul of the German smut laws, and then brings them into Germany for resale in his store, do the Germans then have a case for closing down the Swedish publisher of the mags? Surely it is up to the German connection banks to comply with German law. CompuServe doesn't export anything -- users import. This kills the Satellite porn channel analogy which some people are using (UK censors some such channels). The Germans no doubt will argue that the above analogy is faulty in that whereas the import of smutty mags is (or can be) subject to border controls, the internet is, well, a net -- either the offending material is pulled at source or not at all. Not true: the offending material could be pulled from the German net servers. Of course, there are ways around the ban (cf. Duncan Frissel's emails passim) but the number of minors capable of effecting these would be negligible -- certainly not enough to justify 1. above (assuming that 1 can be justified upon any principle) 3. Why has Germany picked on CompuServe alone -- not only is it a daft law but one which quite obviously fails to capture the rationale behind the law (Thankfully). (Possibly a case of the Bavarians blowing the puritanical horn without actually wishing to upset the German cyber community too much. Although, interestingly, the silence on this issue amongst the German PC community is deafening -- I'll see if I can garner any response to this, and the other points, by sending this email to the Max-Planck Institute fuer Infomatik in Germany where I used to work). 4. 1 and 3 raise the question: why did CompuServe cave in so easily? The issue could have been in the European courts for the next few aeons allowing CompuServe to proceed as per normal (and since the whole of the EU is effected, surely this is precisely the sort of issue that should be settled by their courts). Can any lawyers out there give an indication of the chances CompuServe would have in such a case? 5. Bearing above, and previous cypherpunk emails on this issue, in mind, has anyone, or group actually challenged the German decision on legal grounds (as opposed to just discussing it)? 6. Has anyone heard any arguments emanating from Germany itself along the "thin end of the wedge" lines? There are plenty of dodgey states out there who will be only too willing to point at Germany, a "civilised Western culture", as a precedent to justify the removal of all sorts of topics which do not accord with their definitions of acceptability. I initially thought that Duncan's correlation of net control with thought control (cf. his email of 10th Jan, 12.52pm) was over-stepping the mark (on the grounds that we're not yet eating Clockwork Oranges in a Brave New World). But, bearing 6. in mind, if totalitarian states are able to dictate what appears on the net (and what is read by precisely the "young minds" which Germany purports to protect) then I'm beginning to think he's accurately characterised a potential state of affairs a few years down the line. Food for thought control. Peter Madden (formally of MPI, Germany, soon to be DRA, UK). P.S. Pity the average German nettie -- they're excruciatingly embarrassed by this whole business. yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy