Hallam-Baker, realizing he is a soft target, wrote:
Appologists for McVeigh should consider that his actions did not advance the militia cause an iota, it destroyed it and along with it much of the right wing fringe.
Or perhaps just sent more people underground. Many remarked that the Jim Bell arrest chilled the free speech of many list members but there are now at least two active AP Bots on the internet. I haven't noticed anybody "apologizing" for McVeigh or Bell. There are merely those who act or who don't act. <The rest of Phill's post is just his usual knee-jerk, elitist slander of those he politically opposes, and not worth commenting on.> TruthMonger
Hallam-Baker, realizing he is a soft target, wrote:
Appologists for McVeigh should consider that his actions did not advance the militia cause an iota, it destroyed it and along with it much of the right wing fringe.
Or perhaps just sent more people underground. Many remarked that the Jim Bell arrest chilled the free speech of many list members but there are now at least two active AP Bots on the internet. I haven't noticed anybody "apologizing" for McVeigh or Bell. There are merely those who act or who don't act.
I would say that the visible and government-vilified militia groups have been damaged by this, because of the killing of innocents. Where is the second AP bot, I know about the one at sympatico....... Datacomms Technologies data security Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"
Paul Bradley wrote:
Hallam-Baker, realizing he is a soft target, wrote:
I would say that the visible and government-vilified militia groups have been damaged by this, because of the killing of innocents. Where is the second AP bot, I know about the one at sympatico.......
I find it very hard to credit people as being opposed to censorship when they make thinly veiled threats of murder when people post things they don't like. This is the type of censorship that the IRA uses in NI, Catholics who join organisations opposed to the IRA get death threats and threats of punishment beatings. When the parents of the five year old murdered by an IRA bomb placed in a rubish bin outside a McDonalds announced a US speaking tour the IRA threatened to murder them. Murdering your opponents for what they say is censorship. Bell's Murder Politics scheme was a censorship scheme. The fact that Miltia sympathisers condone censorship through murder while fulminating at censorship by governement does not surprise me in the least. i can guess that someone will try to redefine censorship to exclude death threats. It is precisely beause of this type of behaviour that people consider the militias and their sympathisers to be fascist in nature and a threat to the values they claim to defend. Phill
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Maybe it is just me, but I think the whole McVeigh trial issues aren't about whether he did or didn't do it. it's important, but my concerns are more about the process the government used to prove it's case. It's built this huge circumstantial case, sprinkled liberally with weeping mothers and children, added with a couple of witnesses who would probably say anything to avoid execution. None of it actually proved he DID it, just that it was possible. When a person can be convicted by sympathy, twisted circumstantial evidence, and testimony given under threat of execution, you have to wonder about the _process_ in this country, and th idea of trial by an impartial body. In my gut, I think he probably did do it, but I cannot see how the prosecutors proved it beyond a "reasonable doubt". Considering the testimony that is going to be allowed for the penalty phase, I cannot forsee any verdict other than death. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: PGP Signed with PineSign 2.2 iQCVAwUBM5W4wzokqlyVGmCFAQGM1AP+L5BQeDMfXr0RQjlASHCzb0pG6oxoMbKN Lx+m2Uqttb8KGeGZcKPQpHsAAnCln/dQS9Ra0ITeLe793FZjI+pQxTo2JImwGaVJ M8toWFsWXODlke6u32Kqaj9t8meoeCPkM1BGymFC+bHEt1Nq9rEVn7Xq6Grf/C6l Hp8dU/OOC7g= =+ocg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Robert A. Hayden hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu __ -=-=-=-=-=- -=-=-=-=-=- \/_ http://krypton.mankato.msus.edu/~hayden/Welcome.html \/
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <Pine.ULT.3.95.970604154333.14912A-100000@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>, on 06/04/97 at 03:50 PM, "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu> said:
Maybe it is just me, but I think the whole McVeigh trial issues aren't about whether he did or didn't do it. it's important, but my concerns are more about the process the government used to prove it's case.
It's built this huge circumstantial case, sprinkled liberally with weeping mothers and children, added with a couple of witnesses who would probably say anything to avoid execution.
None of it actually proved he DID it, just that it was possible.
When a person can be convicted by sympathy, twisted circumstantial evidence, and testimony given under threat of execution, you have to wonder about the _process_ in this country, and th idea of trial by an impartial body.
In my gut, I think he probably did do it, but I cannot see how the prosecutors proved it beyond a "reasonable doubt".
Considering the testimony that is going to be allowed for the penalty phase, I cannot forsee any verdict other than death.
Well you would think that with all the Talk by the Feds of how overwhelming the evedence was against him that they might actually give him a fair trial. I think that there is sothing about that in the Constitution. Oh silly me I forgot they have never read it as the last copy was used by Hoover for toilet paper 30yrs ago. - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html - --------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: cp850 Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000 iQCVAwUBM5Xvy49Co1n+aLhhAQFAbAQAxFZxLS36IDf/nYso7VId4x1Ah/qUuVGJ W9AMBlLvpHRLZAkUwbQ4ZSK6ESz+fpXea0ba/mNHSaNkU2N+1x2/48AfiNv0+rlC qN4DZsiqj7RZxIX4jtxTKgcHloHPT6oLW8F89XUW0nERJIEH/JEMnYR3jnJ8us6W AWmxdxDVWmM= =GQs+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Hallam-Baker, realizing he is a soft target, wrote:
I would say that the visible and government-vilified militia groups have been damaged by this, because of the killing of innocents. Where is the second AP bot, I know about the one at sympatico.......
I find it very hard to credit people as being opposed to censorship when they make thinly veiled threats of murder when people post things they don't like.
What? - I don`t seem to recall making any threat, if you are referring to the AP quote above, see the post it was in reply to which mention 2 AP bots, I asked where the second was, this was not even intended as a humorous mock-threat, I did not even notice it looked threatening in context. If you are referring to the "soft target" quote, that came from a post I replied to and was not mine. Look elsewhere. Also, you are clearly under some misconception if you feel censored or threatened by my speech, as anyone who reads my posts often will know, I would take no initial agressive act against anyone.
This is the type of censorship that the IRA uses in NI, Catholics who join organisations opposed to the IRA get death threats and threats of punishment beatings. When the parents of the five year old murdered by an IRA bomb placed in a rubish bin outside a McDonalds announced a US speaking tour the IRA threatened to murder them.
The IRA are a bunch of thugs, who happen to serve a useful purpose, personally however, I would say than on balance their attacks on civilians and private property harm the cause of freedom by showing that some of the "terrorists" around really are nasty scary control-freaks.
Murdering your opponents for what they say is censorship.
Quite so, you seem to be answering a point I never made, please elaborate on this deep issue you appear to have just discovered.
Bell's Murder Politics scheme was a censorship scheme.
Wrong, Bells AP was intended by Bell as a defensive system to be used against agressors, saying AP is a censorship scheme is like saying a gun is a tool of censorship because you can kill someone with it. So is a knife, so is a big stick.
The fact that Miltia sympathisers condone censorship through murder while fulminating at censorship by governement does not surprise me in the least. i can guess that someone will try to redefine censorship to exclude death threats.
All speech is non-criminal and non agressive, I could make a direct death threat with specific details and would not consider my actions criminal, I am no militia sympathiser, if McVeigh did kill those children he should die for it. I agree that militia groups along the lines of those McVeigh was supposedly acting for are merely factions which wish to take over the state, not destroy it.
It is precisely beause of this type of behaviour that people consider the militias and their sympathisers to be fascist in nature and a threat to the values they claim to defend.
Quite so, but "defending" society from a few fascists does not remove the responsibility of a government to govern properly in a minarchist fashion, nor indeed does it change the fact that government "evolves" to become invasive and unnaturally large. McVeigh was a highly deranged individial if he did bomb the building, when caught he was wearing a T-Shirt with the Jefferson quotation on it "The tree of liberty from time to time must be replenished with the blood of patriots and tyrants", McVeigh did not believe in personal liberty, supposedly (although this is media reported so I cannot fully believe it) McVeigh was just another loon who wanted to take over the government to turn it in his own preferred direction. Datacomms Technologies data security Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"
participants (5)
-
Hallam-Baker -
lucifer＠dhp.com -
Paul Bradley -
Robert A. Hayden -
William H. Geiger III