RE: It's MEME time!!!
On Fri, 23 Sep 1994, merriman@metronet.com wrote:
How 'bout: Dorothy Denning: Clipper [clip her]
TLA's are AFU
Dammit, it's *my* net, too!
Very good. If I could offer one minor change, how 'bout: Dorothy Denning? Clip 'er! No intent to nitpick on my part. I think they're all deserving of meme-hood. They would make darn fine bumpersticker copy, too. AR
Very good. If I could offer one minor change, how 'bout:
Dorothy Denning? Clip 'er!
No intent to nitpick on my part. I think they're all deserving of meme-hood. They would make darn fine bumpersticker copy, too.
Uh, how come we can't stick to attacking the message, rather than the messenger? Phil
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Very good. If I could offer one minor change, how 'bout:
Dorothy Denning? Clip 'er!
No intent to nitpick on my part. I think they're all deserving of meme-hood. They would make darn fine bumpersticker copy, too.
Uh, how come we can't stick to attacking the message, rather than the messenger?
Because in this case, the messenger is an integral part of the message. - -- Ed Carp, N7EKG Ed.Carp@linux.org, ecarp@netcom.com Finger ecarp@netcom.com for PGP 2.5 public key an88744@anon.penet.fi ** PGP encrypted email preferred! ** "What's the use of distant travel if only to discover - you're homeless in your heart." --Basia, "Yearning" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQCVAwUBLpNWDyS9AwzY9LDxAQG0kAP+Iw/gJZHzpup+qe12I27w7W08Ftqz4XHH L+rZy7BiibNFK5PN54aRlpJFHX3Ho+MyOobOcZZxchu5usjLvGaqaukBmTLZ3/WN 83QjmJ4GGl/3RtaDmHCpV7iRCTiTc3W1272xz6XhdDMUXlEhNUz6fY56Mh+DbV9g 4fci6FbYCCk= =kncn -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Uh, how come we can't stick to attacking the message, rather than the messenger?
Because in this case, the messenger is an integral part of the message.
I disagree. How do you react when you see an attack ad on TV. Does it really want to make you vote for the sponsor? Or does it make you wish they'd BOTH crawl off and die somewhere? After watching just a little of the Huffington vs Feinstein Senate campaign here in CA, I know how *I* feel. We definitely have the upper hand on this issue. Dorothy Denning may be a naive pawn of the government. She may hold beliefs that appall the rest of us. She may have lost whatever credibility she had in the crypto community by her position. But I still prefer to attack that position and the (il)logic behind it rather than to resort to attacking the person expressing it. Especially when the argument itself is almost a no-brainer. Phil
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Uh, how come we can't stick to attacking the message, rather than the messenger?
Because in this case, the messenger is an integral part of the message.
I disagree. How do you react when you see an attack ad on TV. Does it really want to make you vote for the sponsor? Or does it make you wish they'd BOTH crawl off and die somewhere? After watching just a little of the Huffington vs Feinstein Senate campaign here in CA, I know how *I* feel.
We definitely have the upper hand on this issue. Dorothy Denning may be a naive pawn of the government. She may hold beliefs that appall the rest of us. She may have lost whatever credibility she had in the crypto community by her position. But I still prefer to attack that position and the (il)logic behind it rather than to resort to attacking the person expressing it. Especially when the argument itself is almost a no-brainer.
I think the reason people attack the messenger is because people in the government listen to her, and I for one am exasperated beyond words to know that my government is paying attention to such an idiotic scheme, and (BTW) violating every known law of security to do so. Denning, in a very real sense, represents the attitudes of the NSA and the people controlling this whole scheme and trying to foist it off onto people. Is she such an idiot that she actually *believes* the nonsense she spouts? Is it wrong to suspect her motives, her judgement, her common sense, in backing such a proposal? - -- Ed Carp, N7EKG Ed.Carp@linux.org, ecarp@netcom.com Finger ecarp@netcom.com for PGP 2.5 public key an88744@anon.penet.fi If you want magic, let go of your armor. Magic is so much stronger than steel! -- Richard Bach, "The Bridge Across Forever" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQCVAwUBLpOfpiS9AwzY9LDxAQExvwP9GXQ107W3o1XzbSv/7oV9/OJ8iJbUmYL5 ckB5y2NJ//NaFbEGF2P/muf+VN8ypIhniRqm267mEQIJVLqP5C6SIS11JZJnglsS zjLlIEJuv+xmG6BYJyHVbC8ShIweYPtLlkGg5KQSmYmN/MjDpBJ3wDoLARM1xUoL 1MPxVn0W8jU= =j5xg -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Phil Karn wrote:
We definitely have the upper hand on this issue. Dorothy Denning may be a naive pawn of the government. She may hold beliefs that appall the rest of us. She may have lost whatever credibility she had in the crypto community by her position. But I still prefer to attack that position and the (il)logic behind it rather than to resort to attacking the person expressing it. Especially when the argument itself is almost a no-brainer.
I agree with Phil. I don't have much respect for Dorothy Denning's views, feeling she has sold out to the Beltway mentality, but I can't see the point of demonizing her, any more than I can see the point of demonizing Jim Bidzos or Mitch Kapor, or lionizing Phil Zimmermann. (Before you grep your archives and gleefully rebut me, I did at one point call her "the wicked witch of the East." But this was a result of overenthusiastic punning, and some anger. I haven't had any opportunity to deal with her in the past couple of years, but I'd like to keep that option open, and not foreclose it with vicious insults. Attack the postion, not the woman, as they might say.) Practically speaking, a bumber sticker saying "Denning--Clip her" might be understood by as many as one out of ten thousand of those who read it....not a very convincing meme. (Yes, "crypto anarchy" is equally arcane, vaguely disturbing, and equally unconvincing...but I'm not sporting a bumper sticker on this, nor do I expect to convert the masses.) --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Cypherpunks list: majordomo@toad.com with body message of only: subscribe cypherpunks. FAQ available at ftp.netcom.com in pub/tcmay
I agree with Tim and Phil very strongly. Ad hominem attacks are never justified. I find there is very little point in wasting time on them. Perry Timothy C. May says:
Phil Karn wrote:
Dorothy Denning may be a naive pawn of the government. She may hold beliefs that appall the rest of us. She may have lost whatever credibility she had in the crypto community by her position. But I still prefer to attack that position and the (il)logic behind it rather than to resort to attacking the person expressing it.
I agree with Phil. I don't have much respect for Dorothy Denning's views, feeling she has sold out to the Beltway mentality, but I can't see the point of demonizing her, any more than I can see the point of demonizing Jim Bidzos or Mitch Kapor, or lionizing Phil Zimmermann.
Hypothetical: Demonizing Denning might not be a total waste of time. It often works in politics, so if Denning were more in the public eye, it might be effective. If Denning were ever to be appointed to public office, say as a head of cryptopolicy (if said position is ever created), ad hominem attacks could be a successful tool for activism. My personal opinion is Denning is a well-meaning pawn, and the real people to worry about are those who are hidden from our view who are making cryptopolicy. Look at the NII proposal and its tracable digicash clause. Someone had to be amending this stuff, and it's not Al Gore.
participants (7)
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Allen Robinson -
ecarp＠netcom.com -
khijol!erc -
Perry E. Metzger -
Phil Karn -
Ray Cromwell -
tcmay＠netcom.com