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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:48:45 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com> Subject: Re: Controversial Technology

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I would however like to point out that security through obscurity (ie ignorance) is not security. It is self-delusion. One can not protect them selves reliably from the many consequences of technology and society via ignorance. That which you don't know not only can hurt you but can kill you.

I don't understand. You hate unix security, and the solution is to screw up as many systems as possible? That's like hating cars that lack armored glass, and going out to smash windshields every night. Destructive acts say much more about those who perform them than they do about any weakness of the victims.

No, I hate unix security and it behooves me to know as much about it as possible so that I may be better informed about its limitations and protect myself and my property from those out there who hate unix security and plan on using it to get something from me without my prior permission. So studying the dynamics of auto glass breaking is equivalent to automotive vandalism? I bet auto engineers might just object to that generalization. If I own the car it might be in my best interest to know something about auto glass to decide whether what I have is enough or should I really buy that nifty keen security system. Calling the cops and asking them how most cars get broken into does not lead to the conclusion that I am going to break into cars. "A>B" is not equivalent to "B>A". Discussion toward understanding something is not the same as doing it. If it were we would all be rapists and murders.

What exactly does computer security have to do with amateur science?

Computer science isn't an amateur science? I have to strongly disagree and I suspect that most computer hobbyist would as well. I don't know about you but I use my computer for science (and sometimes it's hooked up to other computers via the net) and therefore find it useful to understand how they work. Both for when I want to get them to do something specific as well as when trying to figure out why the silly thing don't work the way it is supposed to. This list supports the use of computers as well as the study of them as analytical instruments or as objects of research themselves. The study of virus development is as valuable as the discussion of compiler design.

This brings up an interesting question about your overall philosophy: what are your views on discussion of plans for bombs, weapons, poisons, etc. on tesla list?

I will attach the info file at the end so that you may review the general views of the list as well as some of my own. I have no objection to the discussion of such issues provided they are within the charter of the list. In short, discussions about how they work, how to measure various parameters (eg briance and explosives), the history of the technology, etc. Obviously you can't discuss how to measure the effectiveness of a poison, for example, if you can't first define what a poison is and how it works (otherwise how do you know what to measure?). So if somebody, for example, wanted to discuss how curari works toward the end of better understanding the human body and the measurement of its various processes there would be no objection. If you want to propose going out and actualy killing somebody, then I have a problem.

If you're all for 'em, then this is an adults-only list and I need to remove my site info about tesla@ssz. The big kids can play all they want, but I won't steer the little kids directly to the dangerous stuff if I can help it.

Knowledge is danger, leave them barefoot and pregnant... Do what you want, but this list is not rated and irrespective of your opinion I will continue to refuse to rate any services from SSZ. Please, don't send them to somebody who has a clue about it and can direct them to creative uses for that interest (ie visit the Polic Bomb Squad and perhaps try to get them to support some sort of activity with the kids), instead let them figure it out with their friends in the garage over a long weekend. If we're lucky one of them will survive. Would you do me a favor and auto-program the phone for 911... ____________________________________________________________________ | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage@ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________| (Please excuse the fact that I haven't updated all the .info files to reflect the changes going on here at TAG) Welcome to the Experimental Science Instrumentation mailing list. This list is hosted by CyberTects in Austin, Tx. If you have questions or problems please send email to 'list@ssz.com'. You should receive a responce shortly afterward. There is a place for a webpage on the SSZ homepage. However, currently nobody is involved in any sort of project. If interested please send a note to the list. To see what else is up at CyberTects look at http://www.ssz.com/. It ain't much, but it is home...;) This mailing list is intended for the rigorous exploration of nature. One of the primary areas of experimentation is instrumentation and data reduction. This list is intended as a resource for the advancement of knowledge in both areas. As a consequence off-topic discussions are STRONGLY avoided. This list is NOT intended for beginners. They are certainly welcome but are expected to stay out of discussions they are not experienced in. General questions are welcome from any party on relevant issues. We strongly believe the novice experimenter should be helped. Discussions at all levels are available. It is not acceptable behaviour to expound on personalities or other 'flame bait' topics. Sale and advertisment of services are permitted with due consideration of the other members of the list. Each 'ad' should appear ONLY ONCE per calendar year. The 'ad' MUST be relevant to the mailing list members and its charter topic. All responces should be by direct email. As a member of this list it is expected you pursue active experiments or projects. We would very much like to hear about what you are up to and where you are taking it. A working knowledge of diff-eq's, computer programming, basic electronics (analog & digital), physics, chemistry, safety proceedures, etc. is assumed for most discussions. The person behind the email is Jim Choate. I would like to tell you a little about myself and provide some insight into the mailing list. This list is NOT for the exploration of pseudo-science, space aliens, etc. I named the list after Nikola Tesla because I admire his accomplishments and his strong indipendant nature. I have been building 'projects' since I was a kid of 8-9, I am now 37. For seven years I built projects at Discovery Hall, a hands-on science museum in Austin, Tx. I am currently working on a hexapod robot and a high-performance rocket. I am currently a computer engineer for Tivoli - IBM as well as run my own business, CyberTects. In both cases I play with what I lovingly refer to as the 'bleeding edge'. Through CyberTects I support several hands-on technology mailing lists and two user groups. I started the list a couple of years ago with the intent of finding others who like to build 'professional' quality projects. Since that time it has grown slowly but steadily by word of mouth. The folks who participate in the mailing list are truely an impressive lot. Don't feel hesitant about starting a dialogue. Historicaly the list has been very low traffic. The majority of traffic is cross-posts from other sources. I would really like to see more discussion about current projects. "Reality is observer dependant" \ \ \\///// | | (.) (.) ===========================oOO==(_)==OOo========================== James Choate Tivoli CyberTects: SSZ Customer Support Engineer SOHO-VR-HPR-Robotics 9442 Capitol of Texas Highway North 4312 Avenue A Suite 500 Austin, TX 78759 Austin, TX 78751 Email: jchoate@tivoli.com Email: ravage@ssz.com Phone: (512) 436-8893 Phone: (512) 451-7087 Fax: (512) 345-2784 Fax: n/a WWW: www.tivoli.com WWW: www.ssz.com Modem: n/a Modem: (512) 451-7009 Pager: n/a Pager: n/a Cellular: n/a Cellular: n/a =================================================================== Political ideal: The Constitution says "Congress shall make no law..." & What happened to the 9th & 10th Amendments? Philosophy: Pantheism - the belief that everything is divine, that God is not seperate but totaly identified with the cosmos, and that God does not possess personality or transcendence. =================================================================== The end of our exploring will be to arrive at where we started, and to know the place for the first time. T.S. Eliot =================================================================== Chance favors the prepared mind. Anon. ===================================================================