Re: Snake-Oil FAQ
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- It would be nice to have a list of actual products which are deemed potential snake-oil. Such a list could be maintained anonymously through a nym to avoid all the annoying legal problems with commenting on another's product. Though truth is the best defense against libel charges, it would be very annoying to be sued or some such by some hairbrained snake-oil peddler. Krenn -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMj84gEnqfwPpt/QVAQEWZAP9EZ7+3dQol+ZBLYQIiEk8f8avKDje5LBh EmE5GVxFXDgD9wAmcccMMuVxxCaUhN0kc8Q4StQ4aZGjwdrCGouHq4aNJdd73ERP vuk+VpQrlUwSvwwPlfXKUIQrM1PHfNigXrS5OrsQe/H/GjLw2lFa/WI2urR2Cuqg oMmtuQKrJik= =r2wq -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Krenn wrote:
It would be nice to have a list of actual products which are deemed potential snake-oil. Such a list could be maintained anonymously through a nym to avoid all the annoying legal problems with commenting on another's product. Though truth is the best defense against libel charges, it would be very annoying to be sued or some such by some hairbrained snake-oil peddler.
Think how much more annoying it would be if the shoe were on the other foot.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- An entity claiming to be Krenn wrote: : : It would be nice to have a list of actual products which are deemed : potential snake-oil. Such a list could be maintained anonymously : through a nym to avoid all the annoying legal problems with commenting : on another's product. Though truth is the best defense against libel : charges, it would be very annoying to be sued or some such by some : hairbrained snake-oil peddler. : I think a blacklist of that sort is inherently bad. I would much rather have the public be able to RECOGNIZE SYMPTOMS of snake oil, rather than just be spoon fed a list of good products vs. bad products. Pardon the cliche, but if you give a man a fish ... etc, etc. mark - -- Mark Rogaski | Why read when you can just sit and | Member GTI System Admin | stare at things? | Programmers Local wendigo@gti.net | Any expressed opinions are my own | # 0xfffe wendigo@pobox.com | unless they can get me in trouble. | APL-CPIO -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMkAOhBz4pZwIaHjdAQEe9wf8D2Dhp1vcv1W4aOiugeNrJTp7FoDIb3yo 62sq44c/vlBX/Ph6InrHP6zHIKG1gx6ipt1NLXGWDZV0hWGrn9Eu7dIATqHjoyoM 9oFK8c00Rlg63o/FVl2XUHovfbPolqOBX24MRngqrsyWdOyqdShSwVPTH5ZBUj5I Pxp4BWjcjYqkfF7nKXaWitJs2wjaM4yYQ57UIe1Hm/SLLL2erxNfrveWN1VwrdyO N3QIuHfPWM3yi+UUJTOybOKLp+j07bgs+mLr2MT9JmYYrYZwtTEwLD4a6oueUZpN LLWaIS8vekEy7HSzhG7sPfo35v/aaKKWs739af3UgLd3HUdzmVvfgw== =YK3C -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
I am setting up just such a list. I plan to award products for both excellent and lousy crypto. This really should be a committee (yuch) effort, so if you would like to participate, please let me know. -Lance At 5:01 PM -0700 9/17/96, Krenn wrote:
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It would be nice to have a list of actual products which are deemed potential snake-oil. Such a list could be maintained anonymously through a nym to avoid all the annoying legal problems with commenting on another's product. Though truth is the best defense against libel charges, it would be very annoying to be sued or some such by some hairbrained snake-oil peddler.
Krenn
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---------------------------------------------------------- Lance Cottrell loki@obscura.com PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server. Mixmaster, the next generation remailer, is now available! http://www.obscura.com/~loki/Welcome.html or FTP to obscura.com "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra. Suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night the ice weasels come." --Nietzsche ----------------------------------------------------------
In <v03007808ae6a2dfa2a73@[206.170.115.3]>, on 09/21/96 at 04:47 PM, Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com> said:
I am setting up just such a list. I plan to award products for both excellent and lousy crypto. This really should be a committee (yuch) effort, so if you would like to participate, please let me know.
I would be intrested in this. I would like to see the following information made available for any product that made it on to the list: Detailed listings of pro/cons of the product. Contact with the authors & listing of any rebutials they may have for the cons. A appendix to the list explaining why the individule points are a pro or a con for crypto products. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!! Merlin Beta Test Site - WarpServer SMP Test Site Author of PGPMR2 - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts Get Work Place Shell for Windows!! PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III wrote:
I am setting up just such a list. I plan to award products for both excellent and lousy crypto. This really should be a committee (yuch) effort, so if you would like to participate, please let me know. I would be intrested in this. I would like to see the following information made available for any product that made it on to the
In <v03007808ae6a2dfa2a73@[206.170.115.3]>, on 09/21/96 at 04:47 PM, Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com> said: list: Detailed listings of pro/cons of the product. Contact with the authors & listing of any rebutials they may have for the cons. A appendix to the list explaining why the individule points are a pro or a con for crypto products.
When you get right down to it, this calls for a mini-encyclopedia of crypto products (or even sub-products such as pre-processors or "encryption engines"). The basic outline for any products included (and don't forget, just getting included is some sort of endorsement, if you know what I mean) could be a feature/bug listing, using common crypto terminology, and could be followed by side-by-side argument paragraphs from the author and from a reputable review panel. The usefulness of the list would probably depend on: 1. The participation of all those names people like to name-drop on this forum. 2. And/or the quality of the list itself if done without (1.) above. In this latter case, it could still be useful, but the variances in evaluation owing to personal bias would be difficult to overcome.
At 9:44 AM -0700 9/22/96, Dale Thorn wrote: <SNIP>
The basic outline for any products included (and don't forget, just getting included is some sort of endorsement, if you know what I mean) could be a feature/bug listing, using common crypto terminology, and could be followed by side-by-side argument paragraphs from the author and from a reputable review panel.
The usefulness of the list would probably depend on: 1. The participation of all those names people like to name-drop on this forum. 2. And/or the quality of the list itself if done without (1.) above. In this latter case, it could still be useful, but the variances in evaluation owing to personal bias would be difficult to overcome.
I like your suggestion for layout, and agree with your comments. It is my hope that "name" people will contact me. Once the site is ready, I will be sending out invitations to those who have not already contacted me. I am looking for a group of 10 or less people. Any other suggestions, comments? -Lance ---------------------------------------------------------- Lance Cottrell loki@obscura.com PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server. Mixmaster, the next generation remailer, is now available! http://www.obscura.com/~loki/Welcome.html or FTP to obscura.com "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra. Suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night the ice weasels come." --Nietzsche ----------------------------------------------------------
At 8:00 AM -0700 9/18/96, Mark Rogaski wrote:
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An entity claiming to be Krenn wrote: : : It would be nice to have a list of actual products which are deemed : potential snake-oil. Such a list could be maintained anonymously : through a nym to avoid all the annoying legal problems with commenting : on another's product. Though truth is the best defense against libel : charges, it would be very annoying to be sued or some such by some : hairbrained snake-oil peddler. :
I think a blacklist of that sort is inherently bad. I would much rather have the public be able to RECOGNIZE SYMPTOMS of snake oil, rather than just be spoon fed a list of good products vs. bad products. Pardon the cliche, but if you give a man a fish ... etc, etc.
mark
I agree in principle, but for the foreseeable future I think the list will be a "good thing". -Lance ---------------------------------------------------------- Lance Cottrell loki@obscura.com PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server. Mixmaster, the next generation remailer, is now available! http://www.obscura.com/~loki/Welcome.html or FTP to obscura.com "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra. Suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night the ice weasels come." --Nietzsche ----------------------------------------------------------
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- An entity claiming to be Lance Cottrell wrote: : : >I think a blacklist of that sort is inherently bad. I would much rather : >have the public be able to RECOGNIZE SYMPTOMS of snake oil, rather than : >just be spoon fed a list of good products vs. bad products. Pardon the : >cliche, but if you give a man a fish ... etc, etc. : > : >mark : > : : I agree in principle, but for the foreseeable future I think the list will : be a "good thing". : As long as the descriptions of the products are comprehensive. Concern about legal issues has been expressed from the beginning. But, I don't think that libel/slander laws will be a stumbling block, as long as the publication is similar in nature to "Consumer Reports" or somesuch. : "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra. Suddenly : it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night the ice : weasels come." : --Nietzsche Matt Groening? mark - -- Mark Rogaski | Why read when you can just sit and | Member GTI System Admin | stare at things? | Programmers Local wendigo@gti.net | Any expressed opinions are my own | # 0xfffe wendigo@pobox.com | unless they can get me in trouble. | APL-CPIO -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMka3wxz4pZwIaHjdAQHm1gf/XTf+a2znIKWNWebUtWUDQnf2ypjX6QOY nTz3C3bjaoEqn0QicoDr3cvw7DgAde7taNK2RRUSB5wHdmhS4wSE3qacGcyLqmJ4 E51oUYoHoWju+JdTsFDq7IXeqzRhTh2WSdQx52OV7VG+PsFg6AICcDI+28sDqabU Z+H/3GpOezJqvRRAZEjUzqvKX4HEfs9BQgmlLdXGCRZQ52AxIxE44z8kQpgE2s66 iiPhUEdaSYBnwJGgngpTAVIOPZJYHZG+NthvJpwX/sQFSmTOeIGf6KcKm2nlF+4X cUELlHi8s9EqmEp/FlzKLQXd+Fd0QL20kNd+sshzU37HYnTKVDn75w== =dHBB -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
participants (5)
-
Dale Thorn -
Krenn -
Lance Cottrell -
Mark Rogaski -
William H. Geiger III