Singapore & Freedom
On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, J. Lasser wrote:
And Singapore survives quite well being a totalitarian capitalist society. Sure, you can pick nits and claim that Singapore's not entirely capitalist, but it's more capitalist than this country and certainly less free, too.
http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,266,00.html
In some ways, Singaporeans are more free than U.S. citizens. Income taxes and sales taxes are lower. Prostitution is legal. The government does not impose rules on whom private landlords can and can't rent to. Unlike some cities in the states, Singapore has no curfews. Being able to walk outside safely at night in any area of the city, even the poor excuse for the city's red light district, has its attractions.
-Declan
I lived and worked in Singapore for 8 years. Singapore is not what I call a free society. Their system has many advantages, you are pretty much free to make money providing you are doing so in an area where the government has no interest. The Singapore government runs many enterprises and if you happen to be their competition they will tear you apart to get rid of the competition. The Singaporean government tends to cater to the multinational corporations, who were their earlier ticket to economic prosperity, and don't do a lot to encourage local grown business other than to provide a suitable environment for business, which is good enough on its own. Singapore is a great place to do business, yours costs are predictable, something you can not say about the surrounding countries where corruption makes costs unpredictable. Singapore labor is reasonably priced, well-educated, reasonably trained, and well-disciplined - or at least they don't talk back or complain unless you try something really stupid. Singapore management is expensive, well-educated, but not quite as versatile as westerners. Singapore is a social experiment, a group (read PAP) has gained control and decided to mold the society into something different than it was. This is probably a good thing as in the 50s Singapore was a cesspool, in many ways. The story goes that you could smell Singapore 200 miles out, in an airplane. Everything that Singapore is today is what it was not in the 50s. The educational system has been engineered to produce the maximum number of worker units. Being a small country with limited resources (with labor being the main exportable resource) they could not afford to have an educational system which allowed some potential worker units to drop-out. Compare this against the American system where you are free to succeed, or free to fail, the choice is basically given to the citizen. In Singapore this is not how it works, the blinders are installed early, you are not permitted to fail to become a good productive member of the society. In Singapore you are free, as long as you are a good productive member of the society. Try talking back and complaining about the system and see where that gets you? I think they call it Woodbridge. This social engineering may be a good thing. Look at the benefits obtained by Singapore. In the current economic meltdown in SE Asia Singapore is only threatened with lower growth. The people are happy and they love their country and government, to the average Singaporean the government can do no wrong. Most Western governments would love to be in the same position. There are costs associated with an engineered society of this type. Elder Statesman Lee, he went by Harry Lee before he learned Mandarin, is always ranting about all the good genetics being wasted as there is a large number of educated women who have not married and therefore are not able to reproduce. Harry has been ranting about this for more than 10 years. In a nutshell certain segments of the population have lost their ability to mate. The Singapore government has initiated a program to help educated Singaporeans find mates. Great system, economic prosperity, but what am I supposed to do with this thing... Don't forget the other good points, no guns or bullets, color copiers are (were?) restricted, all media controlled by the government (even Time magazine was banned), mandatory savings program (CPF), National Service, and the government attitude of those that are not with us are against us. Also, don't forget that the Singaporean government has brought the Big Brother concept to reality. SingMonger
Anonymous shaped the electrons to read ...
On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, J. Lasser wrote:
And Singapore survives quite well being a totalitarian capitalist society. Sure, you can pick nits and claim that Singapore's not entirely capitalist, but it's more capitalist than this country and certainly less free, too.
http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,266,00.html
In some ways, Singaporeans are more free than U.S. citizens. Income taxes and sales taxes are lower. Prostitution is legal. The government does not impose rules on whom private landlords can and can't rent to. Unlike some cities in the states, Singapore has no curfews. Being able to walk outside safely at night in any area of the city, even the poor excuse for the city's red light district, has its attractions.
-Declan
I lived and worked in Singapore for 8 years.
Excellent opener. I was born in Singapore and have lived here most of my life.
Singapore is not what I call a free society. Their system has many advantages, you are pretty much free to make money providing you are doing so in an area where the government has no interest. The Singapore government runs many enterprises and if you happen to be their competition they will tear you apart to get rid of the competition. The Singaporean government tends to cater to the multinational corporations, who were their earlier ticket to economic prosperity, and don't do a lot to encourage local grown business other than to provide a suitable environment for business, which is good enough on its own.
Truth alert: Yes, the govt is heavily involved in the economy - for example Singapore Technologies (aerospace, silicon foundries, armaments), Sembawang Corp (shipbuilding, realestate, heavy engineering). The truth behind these companies is that about 15-30% of them are owned by the govt of Singapore's investment arm, Temasek Holdings. The rest are held by other companies (both local and foreign) as well as the general public - i.e., these are listed on the stock exchange. Indeed the govt does get into industries that it feels are critical for Singapore's survival. This is the classic Singapore Inc operating. For example, late in the last decade, there was no private company doing wafer fabicration. The Singapore Technologies company, Chartered Semiconductor started the first fab plant. No other private company wanted to do it alone but after that plant came up and became profitable (years later), there are now numerous fabs either in operation or under construction by international companies. So, yes, the govt does at times choke the entrepreneurship drive of the local population, but there are industries where the coexistence of private initiative and govt-linked companies have been possible and viable.
Singapore is a great place to do business, yours costs are predictable, something you can not say about the surrounding countries where corruption makes costs unpredictable. Singapore labor is reasonably priced, well-educated, reasonably trained, and well-disciplined - or at least they don't talk back or complain unless you try something really stupid. Singapore management is expensive, well-educated, but not quite as versatile as westerners.
Singapore is a social experiment, a group (read PAP) has gained control and decided to mold the society into something different than it was. This is probably a good thing as in the 50s Singapore was a cesspool, in many ways. The story goes that you could smell Singapore 200 miles out, in an airplane. Everything that Singapore is today is what it was not in the 50s.
The educational system has been engineered to produce the maximum number of worker units. Being a small country with limited resources (with labor being the main exportable resource) they could not afford to have an educational system which allowed some potential worker units to drop-out. Compare this against the American system where you are free to succeed, or free to fail, the choice is basically given to the citizen. In Singapore this is not how it works, the blinders are installed early, you are not permitted to fail to become a good productive member of the society. In Singapore you are free, as long as you are a good productive member of the society. Try talking back and complaining about the system and see where that gets you? I think they call it Woodbridge.
Perhaps you need to go to Woodbridge (for the uninformed, Woodbridge is where the local mental institution is located). Let's analyze the premise of an educational system. I am a product of this system and tempered with a dose of undergrad/grad school experience in the US. Any educational system thrives to create as its output, valuable citizens who can be self-supporting and useful (label it anyway you want - worker units as you say is fine). It has been a fine balance between a fully liberal system and one that generates worker units for the most part of the last 30-35 years. The system erred to the latter. The thinking today (you see I continue to choose to live here) is that that model is flawed and needs to be tampered with. It will take 5-10 years before an increasingly liberal system is in place - an increasing thinking population that is part of the global information flow that will characterize the next centuries economies.
This social engineering may be a good thing. Look at the benefits obtained by Singapore. In the current economic meltdown in SE Asia Singapore is only threatened with lower growth. The people are happy and they love their country and government, to the average Singaporean the government can do no wrong. Most Western governments would love to be in the same position.
Not true the 2nd last statement. The population is perhaps more tolerant to failures or perhaps not informed about such because of the joke of a press we have.
There are costs associated with an engineered society of this type. Elder Statesman Lee, he went by Harry Lee before he learned Mandarin, is always ranting about all the good genetics being wasted as there is a large number of educated women who have not married and therefore are not able to reproduce. Harry has been ranting about this for more than 10 years. In a nutshell certain segments of the population have lost their ability to mate. The Singapore government has initiated a program to help educated Singaporeans find mates. Great system, economic prosperity, but what am I supposed to do with this thing...
Don't forget the other good points, no guns or bullets, color copiers are (were?) restricted, all media controlled by the government (even Time magazine was banned), mandatory savings program (CPF), National Service, and the government attitude of those that are not with us are against us. Also, don't forget that the Singaporean government has brought the Big Brother concept to reality.
As a private citizen, I cannot own a gun without a license. *I* have no problems with that. Colour (we spell it with a u) copiers are not restricted by any means. Yes, media is controlled by the govt - except for the 24 hour BBC world service radio broadcast on FM here. Banning of magazines and newspapers are there - but you can continue to get it over the net unfettered and uncensored. Any problems with the "mandatory" savings? I don't. The money is mine - I can use it almost immediately to buy stocks, pay for my home etc etc. I don't see no problem. National service - I did my time but perhaps the initial duration can be reduced from 2.5 years at age 18 but it has helped to create a population that better prepared mentally and physically to be able to defend the country if the need arises. Pray tell me how the SG govt has brought BB into reality? I love such generalizations especially from a person who claims to have lived here for 8 years. I lived in the Pacific Northwest for about 7 years and I will not make such statements.
SingMonger
Interesting that you hide behind an anomymous name and you claim to be outside Singapore. I for one, will stand by my name and say that things I should say about this country of mine (warts and all) and not have to hide behind anonymity (not that I would not use anonymity ever :-)). Regards. -- Harish Pillay h.pillay@ieee.org Singapore *** Ask me about Linux *** http://home.pacific.net.sg/~harish
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