Responding to Pre-dawn Unannounced Ninja Raids
At 2:12 AM 7/18/96, The Deviant wrote:
I have several friends that this has happened to, and pretty much it goes like this... round 7:00 AM, when your just going to bed (well, some of us don't have jobs till nighttime.. thank god.), they knock down your doors and windows (yes, they do come through windows), and they take the equipment, disks, tv's, CD players (yes, i know somebody who had their CD player taken. And a pile of CDs. Music ones even.), clock radios, pretty much everything electronic they can cary. If you ever DO get any of it back, most likely it is not the same equipment, i.e. they coppied it all and kept the original.
I wonder when and how raids in the U.S. moved from the "Come out with your hands up" verbal announcement (for the cases that needed more than a knock on the door) to this blast-in-the-doors approach, where the raiders are dressed in "tactical black" and are wearing black Nomex hoods and carrying MP-5s and blast any "perp" who looks at them cross-eyed? As people as diverse as Marine Colonel Jeff Cooper and Watergate felon G. Gordon Liddy have noted, any black-clad "ninjas" entering a home at 4 a.m. without clearly announcing themselves are asking for trouble. (Liddy got in a lot of trouble for calling for "head shots" on rampaging BATFags. Frankly, I'm not a good enough shot--especially in high-stress situations--to make head shots with my H & K .45, so I can only hope to make torso shots.) It's a mark of what has gone wrong with this country that ordinary citizens actually fear the midnight raids, the no-knock searches, the "threat suppression" by ninjas. (There are many cases where homeowners awoke to the sounds of crashing doors and windows, reached for a nightstand gun, and were shot dead by the "ninja" raiders. In some of these incidents, the raid was at the wrong house, or the "suspicions" of drug or terror involvement were later shown to be wrong. "Oops.") Personally, I think all folks should be armed at all times in their homes. Those who aren't are taking their chances. My personal choice is a Heckler & Koch USP .45. loaded with Federal Golden Sabres, a hollowpoint round that has a 92% one-shot stop rate, with adequate penetration through Kevlar vests (typically worn by BATF raiders). I may die, but I hope I can take at least two of them with me. (Interestingly, the same class of folks who want to ban "military-grade crypto" are also seeking to ban Kevlar vest-piercing rounds. Fortunately, though KTW ammo is no longer available to "marks" (= civilians), .45 ACP +P does a pretty good job. Certain +P .357 Magnum rounds are even better penetrators, but recoil and muzzle blast is pretty severe with these loads.) This may sound callous, even paranoid. I don't normally talk about such things, but such raids are becoming increasingly common. (Check out the case of the retired doctor in Malibu whose beachfront home was raided without any warnings by the local cops. He reached for a gun and was blasted with 9mm slugs. His wife survived. Turned out the County of L.A. had hopes to seize his property in a drug "forfeiture" and sell it at great profit. They suspected marijuana was being grown. No drugs, no plants, nada was ever found. "Oops.") (I expressed my views about being armed in a Usenet article last summer, and received a "friendly phone call" from a Deputy Sheriff of Santa Cruz County. (Someone who disliked my article faxed a copy of my article to the Sheriff's Department.) When he asked me some questions to find out why I was not trusting the police and "felt the need" to be armed, I got quite forceful in my comments about the role of the Second Amendment. (I should have just told him to fuck off, in retrospect. Anything volunteered to the cops is usually a mistake.) He said he might "send a vehicle" out to my ranch to "talk to me." I asked on what basis, on the basis of what criminal charges? I also said I'd "be ready." He announced unctuously that my "threat" had just been "logged" and would be considered in any future criminal procedures. Needless to say, I got a lot more of my guns ready. So far, a year later, they haven't raided me yet. Knock on wood. This country has gone to the dogs.) The fact is, the "War on Drugs" has tainted this country. Whatever one thinks of drugs, the result of this War has been that cops are now paramilatary in nature, that midnight raids have become much more common, that both cops and citizens are now armed with more firepower than ever before (I have more than 4000 rounds of ammo at my place, for my sniper rifle, my (so-called) assault rifle, and my various handguns. Anyone inside my house without an invitation is assumed to be a threat to me and will face retaliation.) Crypto is just another weapon to use to protect our liberty. Sorry for the rant, but this recounting of pre-dawn raids on computer users reminds me that the American political system will likely treat "rogue computers users" the way it treats suspected drug dealers: break down the doors, enter at dawn, kill anyone who moves, and let God sort out the innocent. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
If people break into my house with the element of surprise wearing all black in the middle of the night, they have the element of surprise FIRMLY on their side.. I'd have to believe that reaching for a gun was the most stupid thing I could do in the entire world in this sort of circumstance. "You'd be right, but you'd be dead" - Dr. SNMP If you don't reach for a gun, at least you have the 'chance' for restitution on your side. If you're dead, you have no options. nuff said.
On Thu, 18 Jul 1996, Doug Hughes wrote:
If people break into my house with the element of surprise wearing all black in the middle of the night, they have the element of surprise FIRMLY on their side.. I'd have to believe that reaching for a gun was the most stupid thing I could do in the entire world in this sort of circumstance. "You'd be right, but you'd be dead" - Dr. SNMP If you don't reach for a gun, at least you have the 'chance' for restitution on your side. If you're dead, you have no options.
If you are trained a certain way, you _are_ going to reach for a weapon, and hell, at least then my kid will have enough money to go to whatever college she wants. Petro, Christopher C. petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff> snow@smoke.suba.com
Timothy C. May wrote:
As people as diverse as Marine Colonel Jeff Cooper and Watergate felon G. Gordon Liddy have noted, any black-clad "ninjas" entering a home at 4 a.m. without clearly announcing themselves are asking for trouble. (Liddy got in a lot of trouble for calling for "head shots" on rampaging BATFags. Frankly, I'm not a good enough shot--especially in high-stress situations--to make head shots with my H & K .45, so I can only hope to make torso shots.)
It's a mark of what has gone wrong with this country that ordinary citizens actually fear the midnight raids, the no-knock searches, the "threat suppression" by ninjas.
Personally, I think all folks should be armed at all times in their homes. Those who aren't are taking their chances. My personal choice is a Heckler & Koch USP .45. loaded with Federal Golden Sabres, a hollowpoint round that has a 92% one-shot stop rate, with adequate penetration through Kevlar vests (typically worn by BATF raiders). I may die, but I hope I can take at least two of them with me. (Interestingly, the same class of folks who want to ban "military-grade crypto" are also seeking to ban Kevlar vest-piercing rounds. Fortunately, though KTW ammo is no longer available to "marks" (= civilians), .45 ACP +P does a pretty good job. Certain +P .357 Magnum rounds are even better penetrators, but recoil and muzzle blast is pretty severe with these loads.)
Then I also suggest that you install a metal door and put metal cages on your windows. That will at least give you some time to wake up if someone tries to break into your house. Also get a good dog. Without that, having a gun will not do you much good. It will be more trouble than itis worth because you cannot understand the situation quickly enough after you wake up, so you may kill someone peaceful who entered your home with good intentions, which will get you in jail. If you had a metal door, you would have enough time to wake up and assess the situation. One-sided approaches to security rarely are successful. - Igor.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Thu, 18 Jul 1996 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
...having a gun will not do you much good...you may kill someone peaceful who entered your home with good intentions,...
"Peacefully enters Tim's house in the middle of the night with "good intentions"? Tim's friends know his proclivities and would call first or at least knock. All others will be (and should be) hors de combat.
which will get you in jail.
Nope, not true. Say what you will about California, but the one thing it did right was pass a law that said anyone found in your house at night is presumptively a threat to which you may respond with deadly force. Shoot on sight, in other words.
If you had a metal door, you would have enough time to wake up and assess the situation.
This is good advice though. Ironically, the only person I know with such a door is an ex-cop. Who should know better? S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sandy Sandfort wrote:
If you had a metal door, you would have enough time to wake up and assess the situation.
This is good advice though. Ironically, the only person I know with such a door is an ex-cop. Who should know better?
That was the essense of my letter. The problem of Tim's approach is that he has no time to react to a situation. The intruders will kill him faster than he will be able to shoot. Also, do not forget that if you sleep at night, your eyes will not be used to bright light. Thus, an intruder with a bright flashlight would be able to make you almost blind (and yes, you can keep the flashlight away from your body). I of course have no idea about Tim's accommodations, but in my apartment it takes about one second to break into my door if you have a heavy axe. Then three seconds after you break into the door you are in my bedroom and can shoot at me. Would a gun under my pillow help? I don't think so. Now if I had a good door, I would have tim to wake up, cock the gun, maybe call for help, and so on. Quite a different situation. Re: peaceful people in your house. Did you ever have bad dreams? Did you ever have guests in your house? Imagine that you have a guest who at 4am woke up and went to the bathroom. Then you see a bad dream how you are being robbed, see the guy in the dark, forget that he is your guest, and shoot him. Not very pretty, huh? Again, if your house was well protected, you would not be so alert and would allow yourself some time to wake up and think. If you do not believe me, refer to the rec.guns FAQ. It has all been discussed there. And really, I do not get why anyone wants to argue over this point: if you are concerned about ninjas, extraterrestials, robbers or whoever breaking into your house, PROTECT YOUR F^&*($G HOUSE. Then you can get a gun, blaster, grenade launcher or whatever, but none of the above will save you if you have only 4 seconds warning. I am not asking Tim to get rid of his gun -- I am merely suggesting how to _improve_ security. - Igor.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Thu, 18 Jul 1996 ichudov@algebra.com (Igor) wrote:
Re: peaceful people in your house. Did you ever have bad dreams? Did you ever have guests in your house?
I have had guns, bad dreams and guests in my house all at the same time, many times. So far, I've managed to avoid shooting anyone.
Imagine that you have a guest who at 4am woke up and went to the bathroom. Then you see a bad dream how you are being robbed, see the guy in the dark, forget that he is your guest, and shoot him. Not very pretty, huh?
Not pretty but fortunately very unlikely. I can imagine everything you said except forgetting someone is in my house. When I have someone under the mantle of my protection, my senses and my awareness are *hightened* not reduced. Okay, so this is my excuse to tell my L.Neil Smith gun story. On my way driving to the East Coast, I stopped over for a night with Smith. If you are familiar with his writing you might imagine that his house is no stranger to firearms. That night I got up to (guess what) go to the bathroom. On my way back to the couch where I was sleeping, I was attacked by... Neil's cat. It reached out from under a table and scratched my foot. I was afraid he would go for my face or something once I was asleep again, so I went to Neil's room to ask him to put the cat someplace. Neil, wearing nothing but his shorts and a BIG .44 automag came out to see what I wanted. I told him and he put the cat in the basement. I thanked him and said the gun wasn't necessary as I didn't want him to shoot the cat. His response was, "I wasn't planning on shooting the cat." Gulp! And yet I live. I'll trust a gunnie over a jackbooted ninja any time and any place. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sandy Sandfort wrote:
And yet I live. I'll trust a gunnie over a jackbooted ninja any time and any place.
I can agree with that (and most of your other points). I simply pointed out that protection of the access to one's house is necessary to ensure that firearms under the pillow can be used effectively and more safely. - Igor.
On Thu, 18 Jul 1996, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
As people as diverse as Marine Colonel Jeff Cooper and Watergate felon G. civilians), .45 ACP +P does a pretty good job. Certain +P .357 Magnum rounds are even better penetrators, but recoil and muzzle blast is pretty severe with these loads.) Then I also suggest that you install a metal door and put metal cages on your windows. That will at least give you some time to wake up if someone tries to break into your house. Also get a good dog. Without that, having a gun will not do you much good. It will be more
Timothy C. May wrote: trouble than itis worth because you cannot understand the situation quickly enough after you wake up, so you may kill someone peaceful who entered your home with good intentions, which will get you in jail. If you had a metal door, you would have enough time to wake up and assess the situation.
While most of what you say about preventing someone from braking in to your house has a great deal of merit, I strongly challenge the idea that anyone coming thru a locked door or window at 4 in the morning has "peaceful intentions". Prudence indicates that you treat such individuals as hostiles until otherwise proven. In otherwords: Bullshit, anyone coming thru a window at 4am is either a hostile, or you are doing society a favor by removing that person from the gene pool. I may be a little nuts, but does it strike anyone else that a good self defense weapon against ninja raids would be a hand gernade? Seriously, hang it by your bed, and when they break in, grab it. If they shoot, they die. You are probably already dead. If they don't shoot, put the pin back in and continue on about your business. A bit of overkill maybe, but you don't really need to aim all that well. Petro, Christopher C. petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff> snow@smoke.suba.com
I may be a little nuts, but does it strike anyone else that a good self defense weapon against ninja raids would be a hand gernade?
Maybe not even a little:) I suggest wiring an anti-tank mine to your door every night. If ninjas break in, everyone goes to hell. No need to wake up and be alert in sleep -- all will be done automatically. So before that ninja raid you will sleep better. Or you can have a minefield in your backyard. ObCrypto: how about putting an [anti-tank] mine inside your computer. When ninjas try to get to your files, the computer and [depending on your bloodthirstiness and load of explosives] ninjas will get destructed. Has anyone ever done that? Have phun, - Igor.
This is nothing new. How many people remember Operation Sundevil? This has been going on for over 10 years now -- it's only now that people actually *care*. IMHO, Millie
participants (6)
-
Doug Hughes -
ichudov＠algebra.com -
Sandy Sandfort -
snow -
tcmay＠got.net -
virgo＠nob.tiac.net