Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- [ To: Perry's Crypto List, Cypherpunks ## Date: 11/01/97 ## Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol ] I've been working on various copyright protection schemes from time to time over the last three years. The general goal is (naturally enough) to make some digital data hard to copy without some kind of permission or payment or record being made. Thus, a user may have a book (mostly text, perhaps with some illustrations) he is reading on his computer, and the publisher wants to make sure that that user can't give copies of the book to all his friends, or post it to the net, or whatever. I'm convinced that there will never be a secure solution to this problem. (I can't imagine that this is news to anyone on these two lists.) I have somewhat mixed feelings about this--I'd hate to see my favorite authors and musicians either waiting tables for a living, or having to insert references to their sponsors' products in their stories. (``And then he bought her a Coke, and her eyes lit up.'') On the other hand, a widespread copyright commerce system that really works is most of the infrastructure for a massive censorship mechanism. (Reset the price of books you don't like to a billion dollars US per copy made.) Suppose I want to get paid for the next chapter of my thrilling novel. A whole bunch of people want to see me publish my next chapter. So, I make some statement like ``When I get $1,000 in donations, I will publish the next chapter in this novel.'' Readers can go to my website, see how much further there is to go, and donate money to the cause of getting my novel out. Note that I, the author, don't care *who* pays to get the next chapter out; nor do I care about free riders. Instead, I just care that my $1,000 pot gets filled. When it does, I publish the next chapter. There are basically three things that can go wrong here: a. I set my price too high, and never reach my amount. (It might be possible to decrease the total amount required later, though it would be a little questionable to do this often.) b. I set my price too low, and get lots less than I could have gotten. (This is self-correcting.) c. I get my amount filled, but still don't publish the next chapter of my novel. The trust issues, especially with (c), are worth considering. The obvious (clunky) way to solve this is to have a trusted third party handle the whole transaction. We will call him the Publisher. Now, I submit my novel, or parts of it, to the Publisher. He has his editors review it to see if it's worth trying to sell (like any publisher, albeit with rather low printing/binding costs). If so, he and I agree on a price and split. For unknown authors, the first several chapters, or even the first few books, may be freely available, in hopes of drawing in customers. For known authors, perhaps the first chapter or two is free, and the rest go through the payment mechanism. He has my whole novel, and on his web site, he makes available, say, chapters 1-3 for free, and chapter 4 will become available when $1000 is donated to the cause of getting it out, or on January 1, 1998. If enough readers want to hurry up and see the next chapter, they can make a payment. The publisher needs no identification for this, so anonymous payment systems work quite well. The Publisher holds the payments in escrow until the chapter is released, and then sends me my cut. I think I can build a similar protocol without the Publisher taking anything but a backup role--he gets the money transfers and holds them in escrow, and if the chpater isn't released, either he can release it or he can return the money, or donate it to some charity, or whatever. (The whatever has to be spelled out beforehand, and the money mustn't go to the author, directly or indirectly.) This is obviously not a complete solution. The neat thing is, it can be used with other systems. (Thus, if you want to include a shareware/guiltware message on each copy, or try to use some kind of software or hardware protection for the chapters once they're published, then this system doesn't alter that much--the donors simply get prepurchased copies of the book, released on the normal release date.) Similar ideas may work in other areas. In software, I suspect it would be a way of getting a feel from the market for what new features are wanted. In music, perhaps this could be used for individual songs, or maybe it would work better for whole albums. Television and movie serials could work this way (it works for PBS, doesn't it?). Some books, music, and movies would be *awful* to release this way, though. I wish I had a more useful general solution, but maybe this will help a little. Comments? This is clearly not all that new, but I've never seen it in a crypto context from anyone but me. --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNFt4jEHx57Ag8goBAQHQewQA5ri7HOr/z1vlLhIfvagK2Gmcp/BX9fTk FE3NI/L6sg0S5HvGYre6/Pql+zOvbkN6pq/I5C4kepW/K0Y4tQNYiycbzFaQ3htH EA+3ZZPzuj5Ka7ob/AHSnsKpCVJQaMFgZhLJMZPXG9jWjzSG3k8pVKqJklAlu7Tk x6dpqhE1jZ8= =qjO0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36
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Comments? This is clearly not all that new, but I've never seen it in a crypto context from anyone but me.
The first somewhat serious treatment of this I saw was Hughes's DEFCON IV presentation entitled, I believe, "Universal Piracy System." The first part proposed an Eternity-like system to anonymously publish information which was compatible with most Web index engines. In the second part, Eric predicted that because of the Net's economics and anonymous mailing and publication potential copyrights were on their way out. He acknowledged that some workable method of artist compensation was still needed and proposed the movie industry as a possible model. In this scenario a multi-level money collection and product distribution scheme would be supported by artist reputation and completion bonds. --Steve (Esther Dyson is a supporter of alternative publication economics, and I've heard Eric's approach.)
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At 5:20 PM -0500 11/5/1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
At 7:13 pm -0500 on 11/2/97, Steve Schear wrote:
The first somewhat serious treatment of this I saw was Hughes's DEFCON IV presentation entitled, I believe, "Universal Piracy System."
I'm curious about this...
Did DEFCON IV happen before, or after, the rump session of FC97 (February 26? 1997), when Jason Cronk talked about recursive auctions on geodesic networks? Actually, now that I think about it, Ian Grigg did a talk about the sell-side inverse of the same idea in the same session...
Eric's came first. It was in July 1996. --Steve
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Someone recently told me that game manufacturers have stopped worrying about piracy. Why? Because most new games come on CD-ROM, and copying a CD-ROM is an expensive, time-consuming operation. Bulk duplication of CD's is substantially cheaper than one-off duplication, and since games are cheap, people will usually buy them rather than copy them. While the cost of one-off CD duplication will certainly drop, I see no reason that media will not change form in the future. As long as it's cheaper or more convenient to buy digital media from the publisher than to copy it yourself, the piracy problem basically doesn't exist. This is exactly what makes copyright work for books: I can duplicate a book, but it will cost more than buying it legitimately. (There is still the problem of systematic large-scale piracy, but this is relatively easy to notice and prosecute under existing law.) Short works (newspapers, magazines, journals, etc.) will need a different mechanism, such as advertising, but that infrastructure is creating itself today. I'm unconvinced that there really is an Internet copyright problem, outside of traditional media publishers inventing it. Marc
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On 3 Nov 1997, Marc Horowitz wrote:
Someone recently told me that game manufacturers have stopped worrying about piracy. Why? Because most new games come on CD-ROM, and copying a CD-ROM is an expensive, time-consuming operation. Bulk duplication of CD's is substantially cheaper than one-off duplication, and since games are cheap, people will usually buy them rather than copy them.
hmm... Besides the initial cost of a CD writer (which is coming down alot), blank CDs cost $8AU (or about $5US). I would not call that expensive relative to the game cost (about $90AU). On a double speed drive it takes about 30 minutes to duplicate a 600meg game, lots less for those that don't fill the CD :-). I think this is starting to become a real problem.
I'm unconvinced that there really is an Internet copyright problem, outside of traditional media publishers inventing it.
Having visited some friends recently that had most of the recent interesting games written onto a few CDs (multiple games on single CDs) I don't agree. eric
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On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Eric Young wrote:
Having visited some friends recently that had most of the recent interesting games written onto a few CDs (multiple games on single CDs) I don't agree.
Things will get even better once DVD writers hit the street. -- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred. "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"
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On 3 Nov 1997, Marc Horowitz wrote:
Someone recently told me that game manufacturers have stopped worrying about piracy. Why? Because most new games come on CD-ROM, and copying a CD-ROM is an expensive, time-consuming operation. Bulk duplication of CD's is substantially cheaper than one-off duplication, and since games are cheap, people will usually buy them rather than copy them.
No, most game manufacturers have stopped worrying about piracy because no matter wht ehy do about it, some cracker defeats it in under a week and posts the whole game (or a useable subet) to the Internet. Take Diablo, one of the more popular games of the last year. It filled a CD - 600 megabytes of sound, animations, etc. It was *one* big file, encrypted, with dlls stored inside it. The guy who cracked it broke this in a week, chopped out a bunch of the sounds that weren't adding anything to the game (most of the music, and the voices of all the characters). He ended up with 1 150 megabyte version. This got passed around the net. This is *common*! Over the last 20 years, the long-time game companies have realized that it simply isn't worth th effort. ID for example doesn't even bother with a pretense of copy protection (at least with Quake they didn't). This probably contribted to the overwhelming success of Quake. In an even mildly technical group of friends, even teen-agers, somebody probably has access to a CD-Rom burner. It's trivial to spend a coupld of days connnected to the net downloading the archives of a game, and burn them onto a cCD to pass around to several friend to play. (Or, have one person buy the game, copy all the CDs, and return it. This is trivial with large computer chains such as CompUSA and Computer City) Typically it will costy $6-$12 for a copy of a popular game in incremental costs, with the game costing either $0 ro $50 depending on whether or not someone wants the manuals (increasingly useless portion of the product, BTW). Startup hardwar costs are typicall $300-$500, and occassionally the access is through work or school, reducing even this to virtually nothing. It is interesting to note, however, that this problem seems to exist where the lack of jobs and income prevent people from purchasing the games. Typicall this is with students of middle-class (to upper-middle class) families that are going to college and have little spare cash. As soon as this group begins to get the income necessary to support such a habit, this trend changes. So, I'm not sure it's something the game companies care about, becuase they're simply locking in a portion of the market that wasn't going to purchase the games anyway. Ryan Anderson - Alpha Geek PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57 E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9 print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
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Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com> writes:
As long as it's cheaper or more convenient to buy digital media from the publisher than to copy it yourself, the piracy problem basically doesn't exist. [...] I'm unconvinced that there really is an Internet copyright problem, outside of traditional media publishers inventing it.
That principle works to some extent, particularly for the bandwidth impoverished, and the currently bloated games software trying to fill CD-ROMs with unnecessary junk for one presumes this very purpose. Leave the bandwidth a while, and the problem may arise again. I wonder at 2c/minute, say 2k/sec (28.8 modem) that's 6Mb/$ for me (don't have free local call UK side). That's $100 for a 600Mb CD! So as long as the CD costs under $100 and the unnecessary bloatware is hard for a warez hacker to strip out, that makes it worth buying the CD. Another advantage of having the CD is that it's a backup copy, and you can keep large stuff (say electronic copies of manuals) on it without chewing up disk space which is more expensive. Be interesting to see what happens to software copyright as bandwidth gets more plentiful, as huge solid state mass storage gets cheaper, and as information becomes harder to track with widespread crypto, and nicer anonymous protocols enabled by high bandwidth everywhere come online. Adam -- Now officially an EAR violation... Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/ print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
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A couple of real-world examples to go with your (good) ideas: * Richard Stallman gives away the software, but sells the support. This technique has the perverse incentive for the author to make the software require support. * The Grateful Dead permitted taping at their concerts and did not object to the non-commercial exchange of the tapes. It is hard to tell whether they made most of their money from performances or from sales of recordings. In general musicians can make money from live performance. (Song writers have a different problem, more like that of poets.) BTW - Marc Steigler tells me he has had a story accepted at Analog (but not yet published) called something like, "The future of (eat more cheetos) Copyright." Cheers - Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | Internal surveillance | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | helped make the USSR the | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA
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At 7:13 pm -0500 on 11/2/97, Steve Schear wrote:
The first somewhat serious treatment of this I saw was Hughes's DEFCON IV presentation entitled, I believe, "Universal Piracy System."
I'm curious about this... Did DEFCON IV happen before, or after, the rump session of FC97 (February 26? 1997), when Jason Cronk talked about recursive auctions on geodesic networks? Actually, now that I think about it, Ian Grigg did a talk about the sell-side inverse of the same idea in the same session... Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>
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Robert Hettinga wrote:
At 7:13 pm -0500 on 11/2/97, Steve Schear wrote:
The first somewhat serious treatment of this I saw was Hughes's DEFCON IV presentation entitled, I believe, "Universal Piracy System."
I'm curious about this...
Did DEFCON IV happen before, or after, the rump session of FC97 (February 26? 1997), when Jason Cronk talked about recursive auctions on geodesic networks? Actually, now that I think about it, Ian Grigg did a talk about the sell-side inverse of the same idea in the same session...
DEFCON IV was well before FC97. This was an issue I was chasing Eric Hughes on. As far as I understand it, this was unpublished in any form, just presented, but many people have saw it (must have been a big conference :-). If anyone knows any different, please let me know (except, "get in touch with Eric" because that was not resultful). -- iang systemics.com FP: 1189 4417 F202 5DBD 5DF3 4FCD 3685 FDDE on pgp.com
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Since it seems -- for the time being -- Eric was the first person to figure this stuff out and talk about it publically (so, what else is new? :-)), we should give him credit for it.
While we do need a shorter name and I don't really care what name is used to describe it, I do think somebody needs to figure out exactly what "it" is. Since I don't know what Eric Hughes was talking about at DEFCON IV, I can't know whether his "it" is the same thing I'm talking about. Especially since everybody else I've seen talking about "it" seems to leave out what I think is the most important part -- value added. So far I have yet to see anyone write a clear and concise article describing the economic system we've been discussing. I've tried, but to date I haven't had the time. I'm too busy trying to steer my business in that directon to write about it. I leave as an exercise for everyone, describe the difference between a recursive geodesic auction market and a chain letter or a multi-level marketing scheme (which I might add are rampant on the net). What prevents the latter from being a subset of the former? Jason Cronk
A whole bunch of people are now talking about these cash-settled recursive auction processes, and they're a direct, and now obvious, consequence of bearer (or at least instant) settlement markets for information on geodesic networks. When you add anonymity to the transaction, you pretty much have the final straw for "rights" tracking. Watermarks just tell you who the information was stolen from, for instance. So, one more industrial information process bites the dust.
And, since a lot of people, like myself :-), claim that anonymous bearer settlement will be the cheapest way to effect a transaction in an internetworked environment, then this kind of market process should approach ubiquity sooner or later, and we should have a nice short name for it. :-).
So, I propose that we call these things "Hughes markets" or "Hughes auctions" or something. At least until we find the apocryphal 1940's Atlantic Monthly article, like they did with hypertext. :-).
If it *does* turn out that Eric was the first person to see this, he might end up with a trip to Stockholm someday...
Cheers, Bob Hettinga
----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>
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At 8:24 pm -0500 on 11/5/97, Ian Grigg wrote:
DEFCON IV was well before FC97. This was an issue I was chasing Eric Hughes on. As far as I understand it, this was unpublished in any form, just presented, but many people have saw it (must have been a big conference :-). If anyone knows any different, please let me know (except, "get in touch with Eric" because that was not resultful).
Fine. Since it seems -- for the time being -- Eric was the first person to figure this stuff out and talk about it publically (so, what else is new? :-)), we should give him credit for it. A whole bunch of people are now talking about these cash-settled recursive auction processes, and they're a direct, and now obvious, consequence of bearer (or at least instant) settlement markets for information on geodesic networks. When you add anonymity to the transaction, you pretty much have the final straw for "rights" tracking. Watermarks just tell you who the information was stolen from, for instance. So, one more industrial information process bites the dust. And, since a lot of people, like myself :-), claim that anonymous bearer settlement will be the cheapest way to effect a transaction in an internetworked environment, then this kind of market process should approach ubiquity sooner or later, and we should have a nice short name for it. :-). So, I propose that we call these things "Hughes markets" or "Hughes auctions" or something. At least until we find the apocryphal 1940's Atlantic Monthly article, like they did with hypertext. :-). If it *does* turn out that Eric was the first person to see this, he might end up with a trip to Stockholm someday... Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>
participants (12)
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Adam Back
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Bill Frantz
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Eric Young
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Ian Grigg
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John Kelsey
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Lucky Green
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Marc Horowitz
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R. Jason Cronk
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Robert Hettinga
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Ryan Anderson
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Steve Schear
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Steve Schear