Fw: Re: ITAR satellite provision
* A launch vehicle or payload shall not, by reason of the launching * of such vehicle, be considered an export for purposes of this * subchapter. Okay, everybody, call Estes! We've got some crypto to export...er...laun ch! If I get the above wording correctly (unicorn, help me!), it is sufficient to put the cryptostuff on a disc in a LAUNCHABLE device, it never says that
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: cypherpunks@toad.com Date: Thu Oct 03 08:09:13 1996 - -----Begin Included Message ----- Date: From: To: jimbell@pacifier.com Cc: To: jimbell@pacifier.com Date: Thu Oct 03 08:08:42 1996 the payload has to be delivered by air. So, just put that thing in a bag and get it through customs... (or does "by reason of ..." mean that the exclusive means of export allowed is launching ?) remo pini - ------< fate favors the prepared mind >------ Remo Pini rp@rpini.com PGP: http://www.rpini.com/crypto/crypto.html - ----< words are what reality is made of >---- - ---- End of forwarded message ---- - ------< fate favors the prepared mind >------ Remo Pini rp@rpini.com PGP: http://www.rpini.com/crypto/crypto.html - ----< words are what reality is made of >---- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv Comment: http://www.rpini.com/crypto/crypto.html iQEVAwUBMlNYihFhy5sz+bTpAQFnxwf/dvzBi/4wSb2IRUJfrpWGtIiHeq+BODKO p+4P1Lqqh5aPPyjI38I8M0d7/KBrpIHAveQ7UNo2W42WrDHgieFJV55c0H8Envj/ +FOJu9KLR9Z6bQ327jYjmKCTbfdveRiZQX++/4eSud+LMtkByCzLv8IsGPjvKeTw 6fBxH1Zq0EUJuOGNFUx8hCqe6IssYyrr99DLFisfxdAFBdo5lP0ujNzQ/ov4iqki qnFBugIViHikldzbq9e7KnASKP4RhkwAYpnJ85dlHCv8yJF3yjgItf6jSPG48/Xp PkNa4bfp3LhpCRD8AEus/RNxpds28mUIktDluWgHuqP9Gy0ZI9xmpw== =JOUm -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Remo Pini wrote:
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To: cypherpunks@toad.com Date: Thu Oct 03 08:09:13 1996
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Date: From: To: jimbell@pacifier.com Cc:
* A launch vehicle or payload shall not, by reason of the launching * of such vehicle, be considered an export for purposes of this * subchapter. Okay, everybody, call Estes! We've got some crypto to export...er...laun ch! If I get the above wording correctly (unicorn, help me!), it is sufficient to put the cryptostuff on a disc in a LAUNCHABLE device, it never says that
To: jimbell@pacifier.com Date: Thu Oct 03 08:08:42 1996 the payload has to be delivered by air. So, just put that thing in a bag and get it through customs... (or does "by reason of ..." mean that the exclusive means of export allowed is launching ?)
The launching alone will not cause it to be an export. If it is launched and then ends up outside the U.S., it could be an export. Certainly if it is launched with the purpose of exporting crypto, it will be an export.
remo pini
- ------< fate favors the prepared mind >------ Remo Pini rp@rpini.com PGP: http://www.rpini.com/crypto/crypto.html - ----< words are what reality is made of >----
- ---- End of forwarded message ---- - ------< fate favors the prepared mind >------ Remo Pini rp@rpini.com PGP: http://www.rpini.com/crypto/crypto.html - ----< words are what reality is made of >---- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv Comment: http://www.rpini.com/crypto/crypto.html
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-- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn@schloss.li
Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li> writes:
* A launch vehicle or payload shall not, by reason of the launching * of such vehicle, be considered an export for purposes of this * subchapter. Okay, everybody, call Estes! We've got some crypto to export...er...laun ch! If I get the above wording correctly (unicorn, help me!), it is sufficient to put the cryptostuff on a disc in a LAUNCHABLE device, it never says that
To: jimbell@pacifier.com Date: Thu Oct 03 08:08:42 1996 the payload has to be delivered by air. So, just put that thing in a bag and get it through customs... (or does "by reason of ..." mean that the exclusive means of export allowed is launching ?)
The launching alone will not cause it to be an export. If it is launched and then ends up outside the U.S., it could be an export. Certainly if it is launched with the purpose of exporting crypto, it will be an export.
This reminds me of something I read about the race in the '50's and the '60's as to whether the US or the USSR would launch the first satellite, the first man in space, etc. The US claimed that a nation's sovereignty ends a few thousand feet into the atmosphere, so they had the right to fly the U2 planes at about 20K ft. The Soviets supposedly kept claiming that everyone's airspace extends many miles beyond the atmosphere, so if any US spy craft flying above Soviet territory will be shot at. Eventually the Soviets launched the first satellite and the first man in space who, for technical reasons, had to fly through the space which the USSR formerly recognized as other country's airspace. Then they suddenly forgot about their claim and didn't even object when US remote sensing satellites flew over the USSR some years later. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
Alas, a common fallacy. You have committed a prohibited export when the stuff lands outside the USA....It's not illegal when it goes up ("by reason of the launching" and, e.g. *stays up* in orbit) but it is illegal when it comes down abroad. On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Remo Pini wrote:
* A launch vehicle or payload shall not, by reason of the launching * of such vehicle, be considered an export for purposes of this * subchapter. Okay, everybody, call Estes! We've got some crypto to export...er...laun ch! If I get the above wording correctly (unicorn, help me!), it is sufficient to put the cryptostuff on a disc in a LAUNCHABLE device, it never says that the payload has to be delivered by air. So, just put that thing in a bag and get it through customs... (or does "by reason of ..." mean that the exclusive means of export allowed is launching ?)
**Benjamin Bradley Froomkin, b. Sept. 13, 1996, 8 lbs 14.5oz 21.5"** **Age two weeks: 9 lbs 12 oz, 23"** A. Michael Froomkin | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax) Associate Professor of Law | U. Miami School of Law | froomkin@law.miami.edu P.O. Box 248087 | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's hot here. And humid.
Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law sez:
Alas, a common fallacy.
You have committed a prohibited export when the stuff lands outside the USA....It's not illegal when it goes up ("by reason of the launching" and, e.g. *stays up* in orbit) but it is illegal when it comes down abroad.
"I just shoots them, who CARES where they come down? It's not my department, said Werner Von Braun...." -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
participants (5)
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Black Unicorn -
David Lesher -
dlv＠bwalk.dm.com -
Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law -
Remo Pini