Compelling a key (fwd)
Hi Tim, And here I was believing your speal about being in your kill file, oh well. It must be true that nothing is sacred. Forwarded message:
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:33:35 -0800 From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net> Subject: Compelling a key
Would it be possible for a court to subpeona a encrypted file or key,
and order you to tell them the key ? If you didn't would you be held in 'contempt of court' ?
If they had reasonable cause to believe you had knowledge of the key and were refusing to divulge it under direct order of the court you would be held in contempt until you were very old and gray.
Not necessarily. Mike Godwin, and others, have written about the "compelling of keys." It is by no means clear that a key can be compelled. Citing the Fifth is one approach, saying one "forgot" is another.
Citing the 5th ONLY works if no immunity from prosecution for the results is offered. If the judge offers and you refuse, don't worry about buying toothpaste for many years. Saying you 'forgot' will not keep you out of jail on contempt. It might buy you sympathy from the jury but then again, they have nothing to say about contempt charges.
As to being held indefinitely, imprisonment as an inducement to cooperation has limits. (I just saw a spiel by Alan Dershowitz and others on this tonight, vis-a-vis how long Susan McDougal can be imprisoned for contempt in the Whitewater investigation.)
Basically, only until there is no reasonable expectation that the contempt will be satisfied (or whatever the exact term is).
In practice, I think the Washington, D.C. doctor, Elizabeth X, the woman who refused to say where her children were, was held for about 2 years, and that this was the all-time record for a contempt case. She was ultimately released when the court concluded she had no intention of cooperating.
Exactly! It is ENTIRELY up to the individual judge who issued the contempt citation. If they are pissed enough 2 years will be nothing. As far as I have been able to find there are NO statutes, other than that of a statute of limitation for a particular type of crime, that limit how long you can sit in jail on contempt. The only way you would get out in that case would be to file with the appropriate courts for a writ of habeas corpus. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com
At 4:45 PM -0800 5/21/97, Jim Choate wrote:
Hi Tim,
And here I was believing your speal about being in your kill file, oh well. It must be true that nothing is sacred.
Before I even look at the rest of your message, let me make my filtering policy clear: I freely move people into my filter file, which puts their messages in my Eudora trash file. These messages are still viewable, unless I have issued the "Empty Trash" command. When volumes are low, or I have spare time and/or curiosity, I can look into the Trash folder to see what has accumulated. Usually its a lot of crap from Vulis, and from his shadow, Graham John-Bullers, etc.. Sometimes I move names out of this filter file. "Random reinforcement," where they never know whether I'm reading their messages or not, has some advantages. (I did this with Kent Crispin just recently.) On to your message:
In practice, I think the Washington, D.C. doctor, Elizabeth X, the woman who refused to say where her children were, was held for about 2 years, and that this was the all-time record for a contempt case. She was ultimately released when the court concluded she had no intention of cooperating.
Exactly! It is ENTIRELY up to the individual judge who issued the contempt citation. If they are pissed enough 2 years will be nothing. As far as I have been able to find there are NO statutes, other than that of a statute of limitation for a particular type of crime, that limit how long you can sit in jail on contempt.
Agreed. --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
On Wed, 21 May 1997, Tim May wrote:
At 4:45 PM -0800 5/21/97, Jim Choate wrote:
In practice, I think the Washington, D.C. doctor, Elizabeth X, the woman who refused to say where her children were, was held for about 2 years, and that this was the all-time record for a contempt case. She was ultimately released when the court concluded she had no intention of cooperating.
Exactly! It is ENTIRELY up to the individual judge who issued the contempt citation. If they are pissed enough 2 years will be nothing. As far as I have been able to find there are NO statutes, other than that of a statute of limitation for a particular type of crime, that limit how long you can sit in jail on contempt.
One correction. She was released by a special law passed by the house of representatives after a media blitz about her case. The law only let her go and did not generally limit the period of time people could be held in contempt. It was not the judge, but a legislature trying to quell some outcry without doing any real reform
participants (3)
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Jim Choate -
Tim May -
tzeruch＠ceddec.com