It seems to me that every time I send a message to cypherpunks, I get a 10k message entitled "RESPONSE FROM CYBERPROMO" from "abusebot@savetrees.com (Mail AutoResponder)" . It stands to reason that everyone who posts this list gets the same thing. I've certainly seen enough people here complain about it. So. The messages all say send complaints to wallace@cyberpromo.com . That's what I'm going to do. With every message I get from cyberpromo from now on. I would expect that if everyone on this list who gets one of these things -- which I suspect is everyone who posts here lately -- turned right around and sent it on to this wallace@cyberpromo.com address, those, er, caprophageous cretins, (thanks, DCF; don't sue me for copyright violations ;-)) would get the hint in a hurry. I'm starting with the one I have, and, of course, I'll also do it for the message I get from sending *this* posting. Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In list.cypherpunks, rah@shipwright.com writes:
It seems to me that every time I send a message to cypherpunks, I get a 10k message entitled "RESPONSE FROM CYBERPROMO" from "abusebot@savetrees.com (Mail AutoResponder)" .
I wonder if a 'who cypherpunks' would disclose a subscription from abusebot@savetrees.com?
So. The messages all say send complaints to wallace@cyberpromo.com . That's what I'm going to do. With every message I get from cyberpromo from now on.
I'm already doing that. I began with the very first one I received, and instructed him to block all mail to my two domains. After 3, I began invoicing Mr. Wallace $25 per message. His bill is up to $100 right now. I expect it will go higher (although the snail mail copy _might_ get more attention than the email). Anyone on the list know of a good, heavy-handed collection agency that would like to take this when it tops, say, $500? - -- Roy M. Silvernail [ ] roy@scytale.com DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division PGP Public Key fingerprint = 31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54 13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6 Key available from pubkey@scytale.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMmEVJhvikii9febJAQHjsgP9GxzF6SxzbHEAlxsC7tb1d0ZMit9Bz8AQ iYBHJfpRTtKoufekiO4WyIT+BKL03D1FRL0mmjRw0JJ7Zgj4PAhSuUgJVGMOPTUC sz2VsQVtwHDLZCMys/9EjfoNkQbr7l53j9xRL5QKc5xC92ZBSBd+7zLVUQSs6/CJ prK6cOKi3Mo= =YbHx -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
I'm already doing that. I began with the very first one I received, and instructed him to block all mail to my two domains. After 3, I began invoicing Mr. Wallace $25 per message. His bill is up to $100 right now. I expect it will go higher (although the snail mail copy _might_ get more attention than the email).
Anyone on the list know of a good, heavy-handed collection agency that would like to take this when it tops, say, $500?
What contract do you have with savetrees.com that allows you to invoice them? Do you have a Purchase Order number? While I certainly am equally annoyed with their crap, I am also annoyed by all sorts of "unwanted mail" I receive. Including unwanted _physical_ mail. The "junk fax" law was carefully crafted to cover only continuing, persistent, and extensive abuse of fax machines....and I'm not even sure it would stand up in court (lawyers may have a clearer idea). Certainly it is essentially impossible for me to, upon receiving a fax I "did not ask for," to successfully collect on an invoice for, say, $100 (my "fee"). I would guess, from what I've read about the "junk fax" law, that it might be useful in a case of persistent, extensive "fax bombing." But probably useless for small, intermittent messages. And it is not written to cover e-mail, of course. Also, there's the risk of a _countersuit_ if an "official-looking" invoice is sent to a company. Why? Turns out that a scam that is spreading is the invoicing of companies for supplies and services never actually provided....many companies are so chaotic and disorganized that they'll pay invoices submitted to them. When they eventually determine they were paying for such invoices, they often take the matter to the local fraud folks. Until "junk e-mail" laws are passed (not that I support them, by the way), not much can be done. A precedent-setting case would of course cost a lot of money to follow through on. --Tim May "The government announcement is disastrous," said Jim Bidzos,.."We warned IBM that the National Security Agency would try to twist their technology." [NYT, 1996-10-02] We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In list.cypherpunks, tcmay@got.net writes:
Anyone on the list know of a good, heavy-handed collection agency that would like to take this when it tops, say, $500?
What contract do you have with savetrees.com that allows you to invoice them? Do you have a Purchase Order number?
I have records of three warnings to discontinue sending robotic email harrassments. I think that 3 instances of "send no mail whatsoever to the domains of scytale.com and cybrspc.mn.org" carries some weight.
While I certainly am equally annoyed with their crap, I am also annoyed by all sorts of "unwanted mail" I receive. Including unwanted _physical_ mail.
Unwanted physical mail doesn't cost me money to receive. Unwanted email, on the other hand, carries a real and calculable cost. I don't have flat rate access to a POP mailbox. I have UUCP mail forwarding for my 2 domains, carrying hourly connect fees. How does this differ from the cost of consumable fax machine supplies?
The "junk fax" law was carefully crafted to cover only continuing, persistent, and extensive abuse of fax machines....and I'm not even sure it would stand up in court (lawyers may have a clearer idea).
[...]
And it is not written to cover e-mail, of course.
IANAL, but at least one interpretation I've read finds a computer, modem and printer equivalent to a fax machine. And CyberPromo's mail campaign is "continuing, persistent, and extensive", given that the messages persist in the face of no less than 8 demands that they cease.
Also, there's the risk of a _countersuit_ if an "official-looking" invoice is sent to a company. Why? Turns out that a scam that is spreading is the invoicing of companies for supplies and services never actually provided....
The invoices I send clearly state that the charges are handling fees for harrassing email, and include dates and message id's. I'm not invoicing for copier toner or light bulbs. I'm keeping copies of the harrassments, as well. Therefore, I'm charging for a service actually provided: that of handling the harrassment. Let him sue.
Until "junk e-mail" laws are passed (not that I support them, by the way), not much can be done.
A precedent-setting case would of course cost a lot of money to follow through on.
True enough, but I'm going to do what I can. - -- Roy M. Silvernail [ ] roy@scytale.com DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division PGP Public Key fingerprint = 31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54 13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6 Key available from pubkey@scytale.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMmLaEBvikii9febJAQHzUAQAlx3fro7Px/wY6cAIgkVmBWkEcYy1jun6 gLmhC2QiGdf/Abjz8Jc1H2UU5MIOPTRjGhYQf0V+8iCWvSSqutxidLmG668ThTaV SqYhaloxbTui1yF6OtXLpiXIf+JfnV/5wgAaTKnEiAj3P9uEFZhz1yqi22g7bait CFJ9jMeqTXg= =r94m -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
participants (3)
-
Robert Hettinga -
roy＠sendai.scytale.com -
Timothy C. May