At 6:39 PM 02/06/95, root wrote:
The blood is water soluble and many of the componants breakdown over time. By injecting DNA (which has lifetimes measured in millions of years) in some kind of matrix (ie epoxy or cyanoacetates) it becomes possible to create a modern 'seal' similar to the wax seals of yesteryear. In the case of the old seals it was not the wax which provided the protection but rather the symobigy that was embedded in it (ie DNA).
And you thought that T Rex forward from the dinosaur mailing list about DNA from dinosaur bones was unrelated to crypto......bwahahahahaha
Something I've been is: Why can't one of your enemies just get a piece of your hair or fingernails or something, and make their own DNA ink our of your DNA? They could probably even send it to this DNA ink company, and they'd make your enemy ink out of your own DNA without even noticing. Doesn't seem very secure to me. [Yeah, it's not crypto related, but I've been wondering about this since the topic was first brought up, and am somewhat surprised that of the few messages there were making fun of the DNA ink, none mentioned this fact. Is that because it's too obvious to mention, or is there something I'm not thinking about which makes DNA ink useful after all?]
Something I've been is: Why can't one of your enemies just get a piece of your hair or fingernails or something, and make their own DNA ink our of your DNA? They could probably even send it to this DNA ink company, and they'd make your enemy ink out of your own DNA without even noticing. Doesn't seem very secure to me.
[Yeah, it's not crypto related, but I've been wondering about this since the topic was first brought up, and am somewhat surprised that of the few messages there were making fun of the DNA ink, none mentioned this fact. Is that because it's too obvious to mention, or is there something I'm not thinking about which makes DNA ink useful after all?]
This is the same problem that arose with the original idea of seals once the skills of metalworking became commen enough. By the 1500's it was nearly impossible to keep a seal confidential more than a few weeks until somebody got a impression and built a copy.
root says:
This is the same problem that arose with the original idea of seals once the skills of metalworking became commen enough. By the 1500's it was nearly impossible to keep a seal confidential more than a few weeks until somebody got a impression and built a copy.
Seals were duplicatable from the start. You just needed clay and a seal made with the oritinal if you wanted to forge them -- fairly common stuff. Signatures have been duplicatable from the start, too. Signatures and seals are NOT truly authenticating technologies. They are just a legal mechanism for an entity to demonstrate that it has read and agreed to the terms on a document. It was always assumed that someone might forge a signature, which is why if you had a document where you cared that people might disclaim their signature, you got people who could testify to the signature to witness the signing. Digital "signatures" are the first real unforgeable authentication technology mankind has developed. Perry
From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry@imsi.com> Digital "signatures" are the first real unforgeable authentication technology mankind has developed. Impossibility is a pretty strong concept, and here, as elsewhere, it's an exaggeration. Digital signatures are not unforgeable. If you steal the private key, you can forge signatures. The unforgeability is exactly as great as the strength of the container where the private key lies. The issue of incarnation, if you will, is perhaps the single most important issue for actual deployment. It's a matter of economics. The cryptographic barrier is insurmountable, but it's not the only barrier. So don't try to breach the cryptography; try to breach one of the other elements of the system. [Perry, I promise it's not personal; it just _seems_ like I'm nit-picking on everything you write this week.] A remark on the meaning of forgery. Let me rewrite what Perry said: Digital "signatures" are the first authentication technology mankind has developed where forgery is impossible to detect. An indistinguishable signature can still be a forged signature. A forged signature is one that is made by the wrong person. If the wrong person gets the private key, signatures made by that person are forgeries, even though nobody can tell them apart. This point is not merely pedantic. The concept of forgery adheres to the person committing the act, not the act itself. A piece of data which presents itself as a signature, but which does not pass the verification process, is not a forged signature but an invalid one. The external inability to distinguish proper digital signatures from forged ones has profound effect on the legal interpretations of the physical signing device (hardware+software). I wish only to point this out and leave discussion to another thread. Eric
Eric Hughes says:
From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry@imsi.com>
Digital "signatures" are the first real unforgeable authentication technology mankind has developed.
Impossibility is a pretty strong concept, and here, as elsewhere, it's an exaggeration.
Naturally -- but the other methods were complete jokes -- forging a signature requires nothing more than a pen and slight practice.
The concept of forgery adheres to the person committing the act, not the act itself.
Indeed -- which is why witnesses used to be the primary verification technology, and not graphologists... Perry
...
your DNA? They could probably even send it to this DNA ink company, and they'd make your enemy ink out of your own DNA without even noticing. Doesn't seem very secure to me.
[Yeah, it's not crypto related, but I've been wondering about this since the topic was first brought up, and am somewhat surprised that of the few messages there were making fun of the DNA ink, none mentioned this fact. Is that because it's too obvious to mention, or is there something I'm not thinking about which makes DNA ink useful after all?]
A much more interesting spin on this would be a variety of ways to encode throughout a substance in an inert but permanent way a public key. Whether it's an easily identifiable molecule or some type of deep etching, you could do things like mark all the parts of a car or all the paint, fabric, plastic, etc. of a work of art. DNA isn't very good really since it's mostly the same and based a lot on probabilities. sdw -- Stephen D. Williams 25Feb1965 VW,OH sdw@lig.net http://www.lig.net/sdw Senior Consultant 513-865-9599 FAX/LIG 513.496.5223 OH Page BA Aug94-Feb95 OO R&D AI:NN/ES crypto By Buggy: 2464 Rosina Dr., Miamisburg, OH 45342-6430 Firewall/WWW srvrs ICBM/GPS: 39 38 34N 84 17 12W home, 37 58 41N 122 01 48W wrk Pres.: Concinnous Consulting,Inc.;SDW Systems;Local Internet Gateway Co.28Jan95
participants (5)
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eric＠remailer.net -
jrochkin＠cs.oberlin.edu -
Perry E. Metzger -
root -
sdw＠lig.net